Bernard Hopkins vs. Sugar Ray Robinson, at 160

B - hop late ko

 

Turpin mainly used his unorthodox boxing skills and style to get the better of Ray. I'm with WhatARock, Robinson could be outboxed, and I'd expect him to by the best pure boxers, though he has other tools in his arsenal that would allow him to emerge victorious over most if not all (at least at WW).

 

Hopkins via first first degree murder.

 

Robinson was still brilliant at middleweight, but he pushes a hard bargain against Hopkins. His power cannot be understated, but then neither can Hopkins defensive ability, natural toughness and conditioning. Robinson will not get the results here he is used to; Hopkins is tough, tall and brilliant, comparatively, LaMotta was just tough.

Any fighter can lead anyone on. Because 'Sugar' Ray Robinson is so revered does not make him immune to Hopkins playing possum, at which he is impeccable at. You don't have to go through a ritual to land the lead right, and when Hopkins misses, he switches up its delivery.

There is no detox to the blow when you're that good at it, Robinson would not escape much.

Hopkins is not just a sneaky right hand though, he had two hands; short left hooks, lead uppercuts and precise body hooks were regular favourites of his before he started to wind with age.

As said before, we've all gotten too use to the pot-shotting Hopkins after the Trinidad fight, the Hopkins of 33-36 was as stylistically threatening as you can get - the man had an abundance of work rate - if Robinson flurries with hooks, he will get tactically clinched and be forced to defend against punishing, precise hooks.

Hopkins commands ring centre and decides when to turn it on and off - this would be new for Robinson.

We're talking about when Hopkins truly was 'the executioner', before his engine got restricted.

In between boxing, Robinson almost bullied his man with high output salvoes and illegal kidney punches. The kidney punch was given in generous doses to Gavilan, LaMotta, Basilio, Turpin (on the ropes for the finish), and got Robinson disqualified for crippling the German, Gerhard Hecht with it.

It was an inherent tactic of Robinson’s style that helped him slow opponents down and one that would not have a prayer of working against the upright, disciplined form of Hopkins.

By 'Blood n' Guts' Ted Spoon did not mean marauding men of little skill but rather committed fighters who opted to gut it out more than being economic, and this is an important point to take on.

Fighters of that era generally went at it and Hopkins likes it when you go at him. Whatever clever movements Robinson could muster would be nullified by 80% of his styles personality of looped hooks, loose defence, committed combinations and looking to hurt.

Hopkins is a fighter that punishes failing form, and Robinson is going to run himself ragged in his attempt to out-quaff the tactician while keeping him sweet. There's too much to juggle; Hopkins would be threatening relentlessly with the clever shots, turn the tables and rough up Robinson.

Say what you will about any one of Hopkins opponents but compare any of Robinsons against Bernard and there are no look-alikes.

Robinson has to go from swinging at the obliging, squashed targets of Basilio and LaMotta to tackling a 6, 1 hardened wizard.

The deck is stacked against Robinson to perform against the tactically savvy yet aerobically efficient Hopkins that everyone seems to have forgotten about.

Any tactics that you're banking on Robinson to successful employ on an unknown species hold little chance of making a dent as he has to fight a nightmarish blend of LaMotta and Turpin and then some - awkward, tough, strong and clever.

Robinson fails to control Hopkins, falls into pit traps, getting derailed round-after-round.

 

Jeez Ted, you've almost got even myself convinced! A fantastic read.

 

Ted Spoon, first and foremost, I would like to say this debate has been a pleasure, and I've learned alot from it. This is FUN!

Quite frankly after breaking down film of various Hopkins fights, I've come to the conclusion that he beats any middleweight who does not have the mobility to 'turn the corner' on him. Any middleweight that faces Hopkins 'straight on' is going to lose...The way he can change up his delivery of punches, always on balance, great fundamental defense, brilliant footwork, all of this puts him in the winner's circle against most ATG's. The way he disguises his approach with different stances and angles is very impressive...he is a true craftsman in the ring. This will get him over the hump against most...But not all.

Hopkins, in your view, could nullify 80% of SRR's offense? If that were the case, it would be an utter domination in favor of Hopkins, it would make Hopkins' performance against Trinidad look like 'chopped liver'...A very bold statement. I know this is an apples v. oranges conversation...But what is your basis?

Bernard Hopkins has evolved throughout his career. The aggressive Hopkins that faced Glencoffe Johnson was a force, some say it was his best performance, but I disagree...In the Johnson fight, Hopkins would press too hard coming straight in at his opponent, and he would fire a right hand uppercut from the outside much too frequently...The wise old head, Gil Clancy pointed out this tactical error left Hopkins wide open throughout the telecast. But of coarse, Johnson wasn't able to counter like a more seasoned prizefighter would. The fights where I thought Hopkins looked his absolute best (at middleweight) were the second fight with Echols, and the Trinidad fight. The aggressive Hopkins gives a deadly counter puncher like SRR much more to work with than the Hopkins who is capable of varying his attack between aggression and counter punching as shown in the Trinidad fight...That fighter is much more complete.

Watching film has revealed something stylistically about Hopkins to me...Everything is predicated on positioning in the ring with him. In fact, take a look at the 1st Echols fight, and tell me what you see...what I saw was the master tactician, Hopkins moving predominately to his left making Echols reach and punch while off balance while finding openings for his own left hooks and right hands...Another great tactician did this, by the name of Ray Robinson!...

In the ring you can sometimes emulate what you like, but mostly you emulate what works! During the Eastman fight, Hopkins lead him around the ring setting traps, leading Eastman into left hooks and right hands, by working at angles...Between the 6th and 7th rounds, Hopkins said "Bouie...Ray Robinson!...20 defenses!"...It appears that Hopkins shares many stylistic nuances with Robinson...mainly positioning and angles. Perhaps Hopkins doesn't share your opinion that Robinson was tactically easy to figure out? How can one (Hopkins) be lauded for his skillset, in this conversation, while the other is not? Much of what Hopkins has built his foundation on is based on what Robinson did in the ring. The evidence is there...

While Robinson hasn't seen a facimile of Hopkins in the ring, I believe the opposite holds true as well...By moving to his left, Robinson would exert a stylistic pressure that Hopkins has not experienced before...Robinson would be attacking with jabs and hooks forcing Hopkins to account for them defensively...If he doesn't; he gets hit, if he gets hit, he'll get hit three times. Robinson is perhaps the best in boxing history at being able to follow up with very hard blows in succession.

Robinson seeks out opportunities and tendencies, and he will find an opponent with a great defense, and very adept at counter punching. But the stylistic wrench is that Robinson is not in position for Hopkins, as were practically every other right handed opponent he (Hopkins) faced. When Hopkins counters, he will also be more open to counters, when hit, Robinson fires back immediately. Hopkins has not faced anyone capable of this...it will be a new experience for him.

Robinson does not 'follow' in the ring, therefore, Hopkins' chances of setting traps and 'executing' them at a pace he is most comfortable with would not unfold. Hopkins is going to be pressed to defend harder than ever before. Robinson is by far the most complete fighter Hopkins would have ever shared a ring with.

"Bein' strong... don't mean nothin'...if you can't put it on the target."...
-Roy Jones Jr. (during the Hopkins/Eastman telecast)

Roy Jones Jr. provided the blueprint to beat Bernard Hopkins. With movement to his left, he would offset Hopkins...while Hopkins was not in his prime as a fighter, Jones mobility was key...If you are able to 'get round' Hopkins, he is not able to dictate. Hopkins in his prime, is not fast enough to force a fight stylistically on Jones. Nor is he fast enough to impose his style on Robinson.

Ted Spoon, Let's cut to the chase and discuss specific tactics employed by both fighters and how they would be used against the other.

You've pointed that Hopkins' lead right would be used successfully against the low guard of Ray Robinson. As I've stated before, Robinson's movement to the left is key and from watching film, no orthodox fighter ever attempted it consistantly besides Jones...Robinson's activity is also a very pertinent part of the equation. But mostly Robinson has the speed of foot to allow him to gain the position to engage where he wants to. If Robinson forces Hopkins to defend from the left side, how does Hopkins use the right frequently enough to win the fight? Robinson, in attack mode, fires his left jab almost incessantly, maintaining punching range, and looking to explode with multiple left hooks, to the body and head, if given the opening. Robinson will force Hopkins to defend or fight, either way Robinson is in the position he wants. No matter how accurate Hopkins is with the lead right, can he successfully land it enough without being able to gauge it with the left jab?...It is not likely!!! Hopkins's weapons are taken away against Robinson's movement.

Remember the Monzon/Bouttier fight? Boutier offset the normally unflappable Monzon by moving to his left only marginally... Robinson continually does it...Monzon beat the game Frenchman in the 13th round, but it illustrates the difficulty of attempting to fire lead rights against an opponent, if you cannot gauge with your jab...and Monzon was very accurate with his right as is Hopkins...Stylistically with Robinson's movement to the left this is very problematic for Hopkins.

Why can't Hopkins cut off Robinson while he (SRR) is moving to the left? Hopkins faces a dilemma he has never encountered before... he has two choices; follow Robinson, or move to his right and cut him off ...The problem is if Hopkins steps to his right, he is being lead into SRR's best punch(s) from the left side. If he follows; his own jab and left hook is negated in large part because Robinson is moving in the opposite direction...and if he would attempt to punch across his body in any instance, he is very open to being countered by Robinson's right hand to either the head or body.

There is no question Robinson is the much faster fighter in terms of footwork and handspeed...This in combination with moving to the left, and forcing Hopkins to defend with his right hand nullifies much of what Hopkins does in the ring offensively. Hopkins won't completely be taken out of the fight. But he finds himself having to work to even find the proper range to get his punches off, against an opponent who can punch while on the move. Limiting Hopkins' chances of drawing Robinson in closer...Hopkins will be forced to defend and work harder than he ever has to get his offense untracked...and that is very much in question from this perspective.

"Looping punches and lost form"...During the LaMotta fight, Robinson fought a very active fight for 13 rounds...and was still punching very hard at the end of the fight. LaMotta fought with sustained pressure with a left jab oriented attack...As you've stated, Hopkins is 'on and off' at times while he strategically formulates his fight. LaMotta pressures from the opening bell...Hopkins doesn't.

Hopkins' height and strength...During the Trinidad fight, Hopkins would control Felix with his physical strength by putting his left hand around Trinidad's neck...he would almost buckle Trinidad it appeared...One of Robinson's favorite punches was a short right uppercut to extricate himself from clinches. Hopkin's will pay a price for tactics such as this. Height? Tall jabbers according to George Gainford, did give Robinson difficulty...But as stated before, if Robinson is moving away from Hopkins' jab and firing his own while moving to the left, the point between Robinson's jab reaching it's target is a smaller distance than Hopkins' jab finding it's target. Hopkins does not punch and transition while moving nearly as easily as Robinson.

That is my estimation of how Robinson negates Hopkins' offensive weapons, height, strength and ability to dictate. This is not 'clever movement', it is a strategy to put Robinson's weapons into position and to take away the opponent's ability to reply. With him being forced to use the right primarily for defense due to Robinson's hooks, and being out of range for the left jab and hook. Hopkins is looking at an uphill struggle all night.


Hopkins will find with the sands running out...while he is stylistically handcuffed from using his usual tactics. By an opponent whose combined movement and offensive prowess is too much to overcome.


Robinson is your winner, by decision.

I look forward to your response.

 

I would like to say that the debate between dpw417 and Ted Spoon has been brilliant.

Great stuff from both.

 

Agreed.

 

A very long sparring session indeed. Friendly, detailed, and points taken well from either side. Different opinions, yet still in tune. They are both bouncing off each other like two school kids wearing inflatable astronaut costumes.

 

Robinson better in every area and fought some tough dudes in his 1st 100 fights,,,,Hopkins fought softer and was never in a war and still has not reached the 50 mark...SSR by dominant victory

 

[FONT=&quot]dpw417, this has been fun, yes.

Turning the corner on Hopkins is a start, but not a means to an end. As Hopkins skirts around with that abnormally high defence, Robinson’s obligation to reply in combination would give Bernard the opportunity to retort. This is not a tactical victory, once Robinson's sinks in his claws he will find that there is an onion to peel. [/FONT]

Jones the speed demon was such that he could say hello and goodbye within a second, nullifying a fighters chance to respond. With Robinson's committed salvoes, Hopkins is given the chances to inject his short hooks.

Hopkins will nullify, scrap that, overwrite Robinson's style. What Robinson can throw into the argument will be over-shadowed with an economical assertiveness.

Robinson's slender build; good at rolling off the shoulder and mistreating an over aggressive mind will be tactically tested by the unshaken posture of Hopkins. What has not been brought up is how efficient Hopkins was at escaping exchanges without a scratch; he would leap in then over exaggerate his dip to enforce the clinch.

If Hopkins missed then he was usually not punished, the clinching tactic being a great escape clause. How does the physically inferior Robinson stop Hopkins dictating style of stop n' start?

The more defensively minded and stronger man will decide when to turn it on and off.

In the clinch Hopkins would manipulate his victim, not through brute strength but unrivalled cunning like a Jack Johnson or James Toney. Robinson would do well to get the better up close.

If Robinson throws a right uppercut, Hopkins throws a left hook. Ted Spoon is confident about a man who prides himself on analyzing all bodily movements of an opponent.

Hopkins often applied a bizarre crab-like walk to cut an opponent off. You have been able to astutely identify with Hopkins style of operation, but it was the manner in which he switched this up with feints and delivery that kept his opponents at the end of the beating. You can expect the right hand, but if you throw at that point when the opponent thinks they’re safe…that’s what Hopkins specialized at.

Undermining this though is the probability that Robinson will be coming to Hopkins. If this, the likely case, unfolds then the anticipatory Hopkins may pick his spot to strike and force a clinch. This natural rhythm is going to reply with a helluva wrench for a man who is accustomed to the height and range advantage.

The reverse should be asked; for what basis is there for Robinson to deal with such an obtuse technical fighter? Whatever may have been the case with Robinson's victims…you have to ask yourself, how similar were they to Hopkins?

While Hopkins continues to impress with an inherent skill to contain fighters like Pavlik his fire to break down the gates has significantly simmered though age. The fountain of youth cannot be underestimated as the younger Hopkins could physically take charge before technically containing.

For all your valid points of how Robinson could apply his tactical cameos, Hopkins has the backbone of the fight in his pocket in the hand of strength, economical precision and a defensive maintenance that Robinson will find troublesome.

What Robinson showed, generally, was against opponents of a rougher nature, not less skilled, but rougher; men who relied less on percentages and looked to grind you down, basically complementing his talent.

This fight is about percentages, eye-opening shots and dictation. Hopkins is more compatible with that ball game. He is the one who will strain out this fight and put in into a context that Robinson, while not alien to such pacing, will find it hard to adapt to against a boxer made for it.

Hopkins, the man with the thicker armor and sharper conduct makes the fight his own and scoops up the majority of rounds.

 

Ted Spoon, all of your points are viable in regards to this match-up. I have come away with a better appreciation of Hopkins' skill set. I'll attempt to answer your main assertions in this hypothetical.

In the ring, a successful fighter must be in command of his space. If a fighter does not get respect from his opponent either by strength, speed or tactics it is a certainty that fighter will lose. While Robinson is not the most physically strong middleweight, he had methods to maintain his distance...some were very hurtful methods.
Hopkins is the physically stronger fighter, that is certain. Hopkins' use of tactical clinching after a punch, particularly a lead right, is one of his favorite ploys to initiate his roughhouse tactics .
What does Robinson do to avoid clinches? First off, he must avoid meeting the stronger man head on...he must fight on angles. In watching the LaMotta fight, Robinson would at times, extend his left hand forward onto LaMotta's right shoulder as he charged forward...this causes the advancing fighter to have to reset. By setting yourself, you can move back an opponent, because your feet are set, the charging opponent's feet aren't...This was a favorite tactic of none other than the great Benny Leonard!...As he fires his lead right, Hopkins' trunk begins to lean forward so he can gain more extension on his punch to maximize it's power...It's possible Robinson could cause Hopkins difficulty by simply blocking the forward lean.
How about another way?
Ted Spoon, I believe you will appreciate this example...
Sugar Ray Robinson is not really given the proper consideration for the physicality of his fighting. The genaral line of thinking is that he just isn't strong enough to compete against the ATG middlewights, as you have stated yourself in this thread. There are ways to deter physically strong opponents. Sometimes when an opponent is pressing hard after attempting to go to the body of Robinson, very quickly he bends down from the waist, covering his body with his elbows, and will set himself and drive into an opponent using the top of his head or his shoulder. Standing at 5'11" most of the time he got underneath the 5'8" LaMotta. This certainly kept LaMotta fighting at Robinson's prefered range. Whats more, after bumping the stronger LaMotta back, sometimes he would weave out of his crouch on the left side, with a salvo of exploding hooks. This tactic was used by none other than Jack Dempsey!

Ted Spoon, there are many 'layers' to Ray Robinson's game as well...

Also be sure to observe Robinson while he is in the clinch with LaMotta. It is akin to watching someone attempt to put an alley cat in a knap sack. With vicious digs to the body, and the head, Robinson makes his presence felt in a very hurtful way. Hopkins will not enjoy the success he had against the following Trinidad...Hopkins set his traps as he pleased...with Robinson, he will have to work extremely hard to gain that clinch.

How about another example? Robinson would fire salvos of hooks, but in some instances he moved on angles as he torqued his body into those blows. As he fired those exploding hooks, he would sometimes use a favorite tactic of Hopkins himself and drive his shoulder into the opponent to gain more punching range. Robinson would fire combinations, as where Hopkins (even in his younger days) would fire single blows.

Given this...but mostly judging on his career, I feel the physical nature of Robinson's style is overlooked. One has to consider his record for the first fourteen years of his career. No one controlled Robinson in the ring... and from this perspective, I cannot see Hopkins doing so either.

Hopkins' defensive prowess presents major problems for any middleweight. But who among Hopkins' middleweight opponents had the tactics to take Hopkins out of his comfort zone?

How does Robinson deal with Hopkins' countering skills when committing to his offense? Again, positioning is the key...and taking Hopkins out of his comfort zone. The curious thing about fighting Robinson is that while he is attacking, he is doing so at an angle because he is moving to his left predominately...During the LaMotta fight, in the early to mid rounds, Robinson would fire off roughly between 55-60 jabs a round, this frenetic pace forces Hopkins' hand...He has to do two things at once. First, he has to defend himself against the jab, and subsquent power shots...secondly, he needs to adjust his stance so that he is aligned to find the moving Robinson with his punches...This will be very difficult since Robinson is much faster afoot than Hopkins, and Bernard enjoys fighting from a wider than normal stance so he can commit to his punches. But as stated before, Robinson is able to transition in the ring quicker than Hopkins, and he can punch while on the move. So while Robinson can attack, Hopkins is forced to reach with his left jab, and his left hooks are fired at a mobile opponent who glides away from them.
If Hopkins reaches too far with the jab, his opponent is capable of switching direction and firing hard right hands to the body.

The obtuse technical fighter, may find himself taken out of his usual comfort zone against Robinson. Hopkins' straight right is his best punch...Will the inherently cautious-natured Hopkins fire the right hand enough against an opponent who moves and attacks his right side? The high right hand is Hopkins' only defense for Robinson's jab and more importantly, his left hook! Major gamble on Hopkins' part...

While Robinson has never seen the likes of a Bernard Hopkins...It is also fair to say Hopkins hasn't seen anyone like Sugar Ray... Roy Jones used athletic talent to move out of th way, Robinson will use offensive pressure and speed.

If Hopkins is unable to dictate...he generally loses the fight. When you are talking about percentages, eye-opeining shots, and dictation...For the reasons stated above, it's Robinson by decision. Hopkins is facing a fighter in some ways is similar to himself in tactics, but a much more versatile offensive fighter. It's too much to overcome.

 

Really?