Bernhard Hopkins vs. James Toney

Firstly Hopkins is not a mover and secondly who did Hopkin beat at 160lbs to even compare to McCallum or even Nunn? Nobody even though Hopkins stayed at the weight for longer he fought worse opposition. If Toney and Hopkins were to fight at 160lbs the size difference would be minimal. Hopkins loves to fight on the inside were he can rough his opponents up and Toney is better then him on the inside. There is a reason Hopkins turned down a fight with Toney at a catch weight 03 because he knew he would lose.

 

Care to explain?[/quote]

IMO Toney hits harder then Hopkins and is harder to hit because of his counter punching. It will definatly go 12 rds. Thats not to say Hopkins won't get in some good shots. I just think Toney's counterpunching would be too much for Hopkins. It would have been cool too see though man.:bbb

 

That's simply not true at all. He has shown great movement and ring generalship even at a much higher age, one of the best defensive boxers around.

He still proved his skills and dominated, as well as moving up and proving them. He rarely if ever beat a very good true MW but he did beat very good fighters. He did have second tier opposition as a MW, but clearly first tier skills, you can see that from watching him fight.

Toney was about 200 pounds in '03, Hopkins was still a MW.

 

That sure is the most confusing and wrong view I've seen on here for a long time.

 

First of all, this would be a boring fight. Simply because Hopkins would be moving around the perimeter of the ring looking to draw leads from Toney to counter in return. Toney on the otherhand would be seeking a close quarters affair where he would cover up into a defensive shell, let Hopkins lead off, then spring into action to counter back. Hopkins wasn't a come forward aggressive fighter, not when taking into account the way he went about his business for the vast majority of middleweight career. If you watch Hopkins inside or mid-range, he rarely pulls away straight up and down. He tends to duck down just above waist height. When Hopkins elected to come inside to attack, IMO Toney would find Hopkins hard to hit cleany when he's pulling out of range. He'd more than likely be hitting behind or perhaps on top of Hopkins' head during these moments. Hopkins was brilliant at being within arms length, drawing a lead, stepping forward to mid-range, counter, then away again preparing his next attack. I just see Hopkins' defense more varied and balanced than Toney's, especially with his lateral movement. This would be a close fight with many quiet rounds. As I said earlier, Hopkins has the ability to make Toney miss altogether on a regular basis, while Toney isn't doing the same. Both would have their moments and at times each would be forced to play the role of matador and bull.

Hopkins on points.

 

Ok, so it can be in his rulebook then.

 

Whatever. I'm averaging things out. Hopkins for the most part, the vast majority of time, wasn't an aggressive come forward fighter.

 

First half of 1990's Hopkins was an aggressive come forward fighter most of the time.

 

If you were describing Hopkins as a fighter to someone would you say he was "a come forward aggressive fighter?"

Have you seen the Whitaker highlight reel on youtube?, he's kinda knocking out opponents left right and centre on it, but I would not put forward a case in the slightest to say that he was a "knockout puncher" or when matching him against other ATG's that he would knock them out.

You'll not find many people picking Whitaker by knockout against any other ATG's on here.

 

Exactly right.

 

Maybe being from different parts of the world is the problem JT, maybe. Because the way people talk about things and absorb them can be quite different from continent to continent.

When I said that about Hopkins, obviously I meant the broader scale of things. I wasn't strictly meaning that Hopkins for every single fight was cautious and cagey with lateral movement. However, I think you knew what I meant, but decided to be a smart @ass. Don't worry, I'm not being touche about it.

When I used the word 'rulebook' it was another way of saying that in general he wasn't an aggressive fighter who marched forward.

Someone could say to me in the street "Muhammad Ali wasn't a puncher, he couldn't knock out my grandmother" Obviously the person saying that isn't serious. It's his form of expression. I could turn round and name half a dozen people who Ali knocked out in return.

 

A great thread, and one I've often wondered about.

I take Hopkins's middleweight prime to have been between his TKO of Glen Johnson in July '97 up until around the time he KO'd DLH in September '04, and the peak performance of that time was the KO win over Trinidad in Sep '01 at the age of 36.

I believe Toney's middleweight prime to have been between his TKO of Michael Nunn in May '91 up unti his win over Mike McCallum in August '92, at the age of 23-24.

Who would've won between these two guys??

Hopkins on a very close points decision. It would've been a horribly brutal fight, but I think Hopkins would have been tougher, more ring savvy and his defence would prevail against the younger, more volatile Toney.

 

Toney if he can make it an inside fight, B-Hop likes the in and out, change -up and Toney can go to the body and is a lot tougher at taking shots than Trinadad and Delahoya, he is also a bigger man...I think a fit Toney can make Bernard fight and picking up the pace like he did vs Jirov and making it a war of attrition is where he will put out a close one but if he lays back and lets Hop fight at his in and out pace he could get outpointed...Felling though is Toney close UD

 

You're a hard man to follow at times and don't quite say what you mean. I've seen it dozens of times. If i get loose with my wording i expect to get picked up on it in here and there, it's a pretty precise and accurate forum. I'm not the only one gets confused by you on the odd occasion.

The thing is you fully imply Hopkins isn't the sort who's ever going to fight aggressively, but when examples are given to contradict what you said you put it back to people not understanding you.

This is no knock, but it's not just everyone else all the time Robbi.

You said

which is just plain wrong, no if's or buts or misunderstandings. Latter day Hopkins conserved a lot for sure, but Hopkins from the Johnson fight and indeed early career blazed quite often.

 

On the fight i think Hopkins wins via decision at his best. Close inspection shows Toney to be not exactly white hot at 160. I wouldn't be surprised if 175 was his best, but he was often disappointing and inconsistent when we consider the talent he had.