Besides Ali, who could've beaten Listin in 60's?

I give Willie Pastrano a distant shot at it. He had a better chance of at least replicating Eddie Machen's feat of going the distance with Liston, and I actually think that the 15 round distance may have worked in his favor. You see, Willie was extremely fast, with Ali comparable footwork, and as shown by the Harold Johnson fight, could go 15 at top speed, with a survivalist's mentality...dancing all the way. He also had a great chin, actually was never decked by a head shot and only when depleted in his final bout vs Jose Torres, was he put on the floor by a left hook to the body. He would have either been a pest to Liston, being able to spin out of corners, firing all the time a great left jab...basically what he did vs Johnson especially, but against other guys as well....and surviving to a decision loss, or maybe even getting lucky. I just don't know whether Liston was a 15 round fighter of any consequence, ...nobody does, as he never went that distance...and whether in pacing himself, would he be too patient or get frustrated.
I don't think Willie would have been as physical with Liston in frustrating him like Eddie Machen was, but I do know that when in top shape, he could move all night long....and that may have frustrated the hell out of Sonny.
The only other question I have is, could Pastrano have been as good as he was vs Liston as a heavyweight as he was vs Johnson at 175.

 

I've gone back and forth on Willie's chances, because he could cut, and Liston could certainly inflict facial damage.

Machen was able to hurt and buckle Sonny with his hook alone. Eddie secured Liston's respect for his power, as evidenced by the way Sonny was ducking and flinching when Machen made his abrupt charges. Pastrano could hit at 175 if he chose to, but he's not getting the respect for his power from Liston at HW which Eddie earned with his hook.

For me, Willie has a shot over the championship limit, but as you say, it's a distant shot.

The only really good punch Sonny landed on Clay in Miami Beach was the first one thrown, a massive right to the heart which made the young challenger clinch in the opening seconds. Harold Johnson landed a lot of counter shots to Pastrano's body.

Best guess for me is that Liston walks through Willie's jabs, targets his body to slow him down, then uses his own jab to get Pastrano on cuts. Willie had the mobility template to take Sonny to the final bell like Marshall 2X, Whitehurst 2X, and Machen, but he didn't share their cut resistance, and didn't have Ali's combination of height and reach to keep his body completely out of harm's way.

 

Anyone who has heart...

 

yes, liston, what an overrated guy

 

Dream on. Liston was seen every bit as destructive as foremann prior to ali and for good reason.

Not many would have beat liston. If you couldnt get away from him you d be in trouble. unfortunately for him he walked into probably the only style he would have really struggled with.

To this day i cant think of someone more underrated than liston. Like most things tho as soon as he lost he was seen as never that good anyway.

Its like a way to take credit away from the victor somehow. Liston was very very good. Its just that unfortunately for him ali was even better hence the reason quite a good few have ali as there number one heavyweight of all time

 

Prime for prime - Liston

In late sixties - Frazier.

 

:rofl i would not have space enough to put all the names of the guys that could beat liston

 

Ali seemed to take immense genuine pride over beating Liston.

Till he was old, he noted his first Liston bout as the one of the three toughest wins of his career.

 

Liston fought with a broken nose v Williams, a broken jaw v Marshall.There are some fools here.

 

I wouldn't personally pick any of the mainstream 1960's heavyweights to beat Sonny at that time ( although Leotis Martin DID beat him in 1969, but Liston was past it. ) As it was, Liston defeated the vast majority of the big dogs in Williams, Folley, Machen, Patterson, Harris and Clark.. Joe Frazier wasn't fully developed in the 1960's and I'm not even sure I'd favor him at his pinnacle. Jimmy Ellis lacked durability and had the wrong kind of style for that type of opponent. Putting George Chuvalo in with the bear would have been pure cruelty as George would have taken the beating of his life.. Muhammad Ali is the only man from that era who can be comfortably favored to beat him, and that's with the advantage of hindsight.

 

As much as id love to say "then we'd have heavyweight champion Amos Lincoln" or somebody, if 12 year old Ali never has his bike stolen, Liston would be champ until Joe Frazier fights him in 1967-8.

 

How about Smoking Joe?

 

Liston looks great on film in 1960. I think like Ingo, Sonny had a very short prime.

The record shows that against confident fighters with desire and comparable reach Sonny didn't look half as good. Depending on how confident he was I would give Terrell a 50-50 chance. After 65' I would give Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry a 50-50 chance too. But I would give Ellis and Frazier 70% and above chance of beating Liston over the 66-69 period.

If I could count on Patterson's confidence and desire against Liston I would select him also. Floyd certainly beat better men after 64 than Sonny did.

1970, Joe Bugner looked a lot better beating Chuck Wepner than Liston did so I would give kid Bugner a real chance too.

 

Bonavena,frazier,quarry and (maybe terrell )would beat him

 

No chance. Ali beat them all post lay off. Ali was better pre lay off and went 50/50 with liston for a bit. None of these barring frazier had the same success with post lay off ali