Best bantamweight: 1990-2010

Great thread :good

 

i think most of the guys in the list are very, very good. but i think there is considerable doubt with canizales, that it's a toss up with orlando, veeraphol, and marquez. marquez dethroning austin was impressive. austin was like a bantam paul williams & marquez stopped him in a skilled, explosive fight

 

Ayala was good, was in a couple of great fights. But he deserved to lose at least once to Tapia (from 2 fights) and once to Adams (from 2 fights).

McCullough probably deserves a mention - but not my vote. Short reign, but took on 3 very tough guys Rabanales, Yakushiji, and in a fantastic fight, Jose Luis Bueno.

 

Re Veeraphol v Tatsuyoshi. Tatsuyoshi had won one of the best fights ever, v Singwancha, for the title. Gatti-style warrior, was Tatsuyoshi.

Veeraphol destroyed him in 2 clinical showings. As I said on another forum, this was Mayweather-Gatti, about 6 years before Mayweather-Gatti!

So anyway, Rafael Marquez distinguished by KO of the bantamweight Paul Williams - Tim Austin. Massive win.

Both have success vs super bantams - Marquez 3 fight epic vs Vazquez, highest level of offensive fighting in years; Sahaprom holds 2 wins, 2 draws, v Nishioka WBC 122 holder currently. Orlando disappointed v super bantams.

I reckon I rate both guys slightly above Orlando C. He kept winning but not really one truly outstanding moment.

 

Definitely an arguement for them over Orlando rumourtiger, with their top shelf wins. Orlando's resume is a little thin in that regard. Would have been good to see him in against Raul Perez, get some payback for Gaby.

But for me, in response the thread, I think say he is the best bantamweight I have seen from all those picks...in a H2H sense.

Id have Marquez a bit below Sahaprom and Orlando in that regard...I think he gets a lot of mileage out his Vasquez wars, rightly so to a degree..but he is getting people to put on the Gatti-coloured glasses when they consider him historically and p4p.
I dont personally hold Austin in the same esteem you do...though that was a good win and Tim was a very good fighter...I can dig the Williams comparison because frankly Im not that high on Paul either.

 

I think the Rafa/Vaz fights were Gatti-like in drama, but such a high level of offensive fighting, a rarified level that Gatti for example didn't reach.

Vaz seemed to have improved so much. Check out the loss to Larios around 2002 - all the missed shots, getting stopped late. Wildly exciting but not top level. Whereas the Vaz-Rafa fights seemed much higher quality, more refined skills.

Tim Austin was definitely inactive, but freakishly tall southpaw, heavy hitter; very, very hard to beat. A bit of a classic as well - tense tactical stuff, then the bomb drops; both guys hurt several times each. A very big task for Marquez and most felt he wasn't up to it following controversial (and very exciting) win over "Too Sharp" Johnson.

 

Here's the sensational Tatsuyoshi v Sinwangcha fight, WBC bantam title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGOEpT7WN3s[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yYZy6Otwo&feature=related[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0S9ZhW3d3o&feature=related[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBHTxsq3RMw&feature=related[YT][/YT]

Here's Veeraphol's 2nd masterclass over Tatsuyoshi, WBC bantam title, Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHvhoay2cw8[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJIHrvePx9s[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S35ggQX83eo[YT][/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpAjfnPNM0o[YT][/YT]

 

I remember it being a shock at the time...I was a little suprised myself. I sorta wanted to see Tim take it, as I was always a big fan of Toosharp and it gutted me a little that Marquez beat him...especially since he was such a notorious weight cutter, Johnson was already out of his element at the weight let alone taking such a monster like Marquez. I sorta wanted to see how he faired against someone his own size or in this case probably bigger.

But he saw it through and scored one of the best knockouts of that year.

 

So many gem fights that go unnoticed in Japan...you ever caught Sakata-Parra I rumour?

Awesome little fight that one.

 

I thought he won the first Reyes fight comfortably, and regardless, he showed his class in the Hardy (and Reyes) rematch. Also, though he didn't face the best competition available, it wasn't necessarily his fault. The majority of the belt-holders of that era and weight class never really got to test themselves against the rest, mainly due to their management. The belt-holders were making the same pay fighting mandatories and contenders as they would've been fighting the other champs, ruining any incentive they may've had to seek out the big fights. Canizales can't be the one to lay the fault on because of this.

Also, his losses to both Vazquez and Jones were not only very close (I thought he beat Vazquez), but both occured while past his prime.

I believe we just mentioned them.

And again. Not to mention Bones Adams, who'd go on to arguably beat Ayala nearly a decade down the road, Espadas Jr as well.

Due to his era and the conditions of the lower weight classes around the time he was dominating, Canizales typically gets a bit of a pass on his competition. Still, he did prove himself against top fighters like Seabrooks, often in startlingly impressive fashion. Ability-wise, there've been few Bantamweights to ever match him IMO, that is readily evident from the film available. That is also why he rates so highly, with myself anyway.

 

For startlingly impressive performances - check out Veeraphol's 2 wins over Tatsuyoshi. That is amazing talent on display, defense, offense, footwork, great arsenal of shots - the works.

Of the guys Canizales beat, I may be wrong but only Bones Adams went on to later success. Point taken that Orlando was past his best, but still disappointing to see him lose to Vazquez (I scored it 6-6 draw).

I think Canizales' "defining" type of fight would have been unification with Junior Jones at 118. But Jones lost his title in massive upset & would have been too vulnerable down at bantam. But could have been a big fight at one point.

re big reputations - Marquez beat the big(ish) names he faced, whereas Orlando did unfortunately lose to his 2 biggest names.

 

I wouldn't say Marquez' efforts against Johnson were particularly impressive, considering Johnson was a past prime midget at the weight.His effort against Montiel was good for a last hurrah, but had more to do with Montiel's mediocrity and apathy.

Canizales
Raul Perez
Old Konadu
Sahaprom
Chuvatana
Tapia

in no particular order those would be the ones whom at their best , i'd consider were more than just solid or very good in a generic sense.Guys like Marquez, Austin, early junior jones, Nishioka... in the next tier.

 

I thought Too Sharp was jobbed in the first Marquez fight.

Too Sharp was an excellent fighter, but the guy was outside his weight class and had been in the clink for over a year prior and so he looked a shadow of himself, even though I thought he beat Marquez first up. More to do with the limitations of Rafael than one of Johnson's master performances.

 

I felt an inexperienced Marquez learned what it was like at world class, v Johnson 1. it was a classic fight and it was probably Johnson's last really good performance. Could have gone either way, the decision was changed from Johnson to Marquez. But it's a classic fight and took Marquez to the next level.

Marquez faced genuine world class in Austin - in another outstanding fight. Granted he blew away a few bums and midgets, but also faced tough, fit Mabuza twice.

MAYBE Canizales is above Marquez, due to longevity. However, due to the high level of excellence (2-way) v Johnson 1, Austin, (and up at 122) Vazquez 1 (AMAZING sharpshooting) and even the 2 subsequent losses - I have no doubt that Rafael is a better fighter overall.

If Canizales is getting credit for using his hand/footspeed to batter strong, straight ahead Seabrooks, I do recommend checking out Veeraphol vs Tatsuyoshi 1 & 2 on Youtube: absolute masterclasses, stunning natural ability - battering a very tough champion.

 

Tatsuyoshi was shot to pieces by then, he had terrible problems with his eyes throughout his career.By the time he fought Sahaprom he was in the same category as late career Julian Jackson or maybe even Ray Seales for eye trouble.

Not that i think he would hvae bothered Sahaprom much even his prime though.I rate Sahaprom quite highly, a much better more rounded fighter than Marquez or austin.