Best Ever under 200lb (head-to-head)

I would take him over Louis. How many southpaws did Louis fight? Uysk, spent his whole life taking apart conventional fighters. There was simply no one like him in Louis's era. With that said, I love Joe Louis and have tons of respect for him as a innovator but if 168 pound Billy Conn can outbox him for 14 rounds, Uysk could as well. Holyfield himself said that Uysk would have been a very tough opponent. Could Holyfield and his ferocious will beat Uysk? Sure, but I always take the superior technical fighters when I bet on fights and Uysk was/is superior to just about everyone.

 

Don't understand how people can have such a high opinion oh Usyk based on what wins over Joshua who is nowhere near an ATG and Fury who i also dont consider an ATG. The man has 0 inside game. He also doesn't like it downstairs. People marvel at his footwork but when really pressed I see panick in his face. Nope I just dont get it. Everyone on that list except Moorer and the HW version of Toney I would heavily favor to beat him. Just my 2 cents.

 

Remind me what kind of inside game Ali had? Almost like its not really nesscary when you're an outboxer fighting bigger stronger men.........

 

Uysk definitely has a inside game. His game is very dependent on escaping clinches and he isn't exactly a SHW outside fighter.

I would also say in defense of Ali he could have gone inside more as he showed in Frazier 3 and this after all the mileage on body but he choose not to which probably costed him against Norton in particular. In the 60s he didn't really need it most the time so why take the risk and take a few more punches I suppose when Ali was that fast then.

 

I agree on the southpaw point brother, Louis didn’t face any (right?) I wonder how he’d do but I think the skill level of Conn is a fair bit higher than Usyk but I do think Usyk gets my man Holyfield that’s just a bad match up IMO.

 

When I say I like Uysk over the rest, it's not meant to take anything away from a guy like Joe Louis. Louis beat the best of his era and is rightly judged for being the best of that time. Uysk's amateur pedigree is a big reason for how highly I think of him. For example, in the 2012 Olympics, he beat Beterbiev who was also a highly decorated fighter in both the amateurs and pro's. Beterbiev would without question be a heavyweight in the same day era.

Back to Louis, as great as he was and he truly was great. He could be outboxed and was by Conn, Walcott and Charles. Now was he older against Walcott and Charles? Yes, but I would argue that Uysk's 350 fight amateur career combined with what he has done in the pros means he is every bit as shopworn yet he still finds a way to beat much larger men. The guy is a winner and in my 40 years of involvement in this sport, he is right up there with the best ever.

I keep seeing people disparage Joshua and Fury but those guys are good, accomplished fighters and far better than the majority of the guys from Louis's era.

 

It's not just what he has done against Joshua and Fury. The caliber of men at Cruiserweight that he beat back to back to back is unreal. These guys might not be household names but they were all really good fighters.

Regarding the body shots, all fighters can be hurt to the body. At the end of the day, he has never been stopped or badly hurt.

 

Ali was an outside guy but when he had to he knew what to do on the inside. Usyk is like a deer in headlights on the inside absolutely clueless. Guys like Frazier would force it on the inside throughout a fight then what does he do? He can't tie him up every single time without being forced to engage. He's gonna get hammered. He's been hurt to the body and he's not very good at covering that up on his movements and expressions. Guy is beyond overrated.

 

Saying Ali 'knew what to do on the inside' compared to Usyk is missing the point. Ali often resorted to clinching or, later, the rope-a-dope defensively on the inside. Usyk's entire game is built on not being there using his incredible footwork, angles, and pivots to reset. Is that 'clueless,' or is it highly intelligent boxing for a smaller man negating a bigger opponent's strength?

And Frazier? Frazier would have a hell of a time trying to consistently corner Usyk. Usyk isn't going to lean on the ropes like Ali did and invite punishment. He’d be using constant lateral movement, feints, and pivots to turn Frazier, peppering him as he came in. Frazier would eat a ton of leather trying to close that gap against a master mover who doesn't stand still.

As for body shots? He’s taken them from legitimate heavyweights like Joshua, Fury, Chisora, and Gassiev all of whom hit much harder then Frazier and kept his pace and output high. That 'one low blow' you're clinging to from Dubois was ruled illegal, and he recovered to dominate. Trying to paint him as fragile downstairs based on that is just wishful thinking. He's proven he can absorb body work and stick to his game plan.

And facts are facts Usyk, with his southpaw stance, relentless pace, and high ring IQ, would be a puzzle for any era. Your boy Holmes? He got knocked out by the only southpaw he ever faced and avoided them like the plague afterwards so its doubtful he would do much against the best southpaw heavyweight has ever had. Maybe ease up on the nostalgia and recognize the technical skill in front of you.

 

I like Louis's chances here, followed in order by Holyfield, Marciano and Frazier.

 

Hi Buddy.
You make some informative and interesting points, all highly creditable, until " Fury, Chisora, and Gassiev, hit harder than Frazier " I don't mean to be disrespectful but is this a typo ? if not, then we part company, in a friendly way of course.
stay safe buddy, chat soon .
Mike.

 

Hey Bob but wouldn’t you say Ali’s exact success came from employing a death clinch against Frazier? I don’t remember seeing him fight much toe to toe there. Not trying to third party but you’ve got knowledge and I wanted to pick your brain on why you don’t think Usyk could lock Frazier up like Ali did in “Superfight 2” as a sort of equaliser to not being able to fight inside… I’m not saying Usyk beats Frazier either, I think Frazier wins but I’m just curios, you’d know all about inside fighting the forum knows what gyms you’ve been in.

 

I don’t think it’s crazy at all modern 240+ lb super heavyweights like Fury, Chisora, and Joshua hit harder than Frazier ever did. Frazier’s power is overrated he mostly knocked out smaller guys and struggled to KO bigger opponents, relying on pressure over pure punch. In today’s era, size and mass matter, and these SHWs pack way more punch than a 200 lb Frazier ever could.

 

Hi Buddy.
Fair points, will concede.
chat soon.
Mike.

 

Joe Louis and I will even pick the version.

Night of the second Schmeling fight 198 3/4 lbs.