Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

The Jeffries fight is a difficult issue, because we don't have anything else to judge him by.

It might be that he still had enough left to beat every single white hope, or he might truly have had nothing left.

 

Choynski has 4 recorded fights before the loss to Corbett ,3 against nobodies, those three have respective records of
1-0-0,
0-0-0
6-7-5
The other, that no dec,aborted one with Corbett.

 

We need to say a little about Denver Ed Martin now.

He is largely forgotten today, but he was highly touted going into the Johnson fight. He was one of the few contenders that people gave a chance of defeating Jeffries, and he went into the fight a betting favorite. He was 6' 4'', and by some accounts had a 20lb weigth advantage over Johnson. Here are some of the things said about Martin before the fight:

"He is young, almost if not quite ad clever as Ruhlin, can punch harder, is ambitious and thoroughly game. As I said several weeks ago, of all the men looming up on the pugilistic horizon not one has better qualifications for usurping the title than he. The next champion will be a black man, mark the prediction."

San Francisco Evening Post

"The Colored Heavyweight championship lies between Denver Ed Martin, the black whirlwind of the coast, and neither will have a clear title until he whips the other."

Bute Miner

"Since the start of his career, Martin's strongest card has been his cleverness. Endowed to an unusual extent by nature in respect to size and strength, he is also one of the most skilled men in the profession, big or little."

Los Angeles Herald

"Martin has quite a reputation in the east, and will surely go into the fight a favorite over Johnson. Johnson while not as experienced as Martin, has youth and ambition in his favor, and has an idea that he is as good as the best of them."

Tom McCarey

 

Some observations about the fight itself:

"From the start, realizing that Martin had every physical advantage, Johnson played a waiting game, looking to counter. He assumed a peculiar position, half crouched, and blocked the clever Martin's efforts, in a way that repeatedly evoked cheers from the house."

"They mixed it like bantems, fought in and out like middleweights, and were lightning fast on their feet. In covering ground rapidly Martin showed himself to be a wonder. His footwork was splendid, his boxing phenomenally stylish, and his appearance in the ring most impressive."

Los Angeles Herald

"Denver Ed Martin was the harder hitter, but that did not help him any. Johnson's cleverness was something that he could not solve. His left jabs sailed past Johnson's ear nearly every time."

National Police Gazette

Johnson would fight McVea a mere 21 days later!

Needless to say, I wish this fight had been filmed, because it would show us a new dimension to Johnson!

 

I will now say a few words on Sam McVea.

Some people dismiss these fights based upon McVea's youth and inexperience, but he was undoubtedly viewed as a top contender.

"Jeffries now fears no pugilist on earth capable of giving him a battle. There is one man who might have a faint chance of success, and that is Sam McVea, the Oxnard Giant. He weighs in excess of 200lbs, and has a very hard wallop. He is the only kind of man, of whom the champion would stand in the least bit of danger. Punchers like Gardner, Monroe, Sharkey, and Ruhlin, are easy game for the champion."

San Francisco Evening Post

"They say there's only two men left who have a chance with Jeffries, that's Sam McVea and myself"

Jack Johnson

"There is none at present in the Queensbury game who is possessed of a better physique than McVea. Six feet in height, weight 210 pounds and as hard as nails, with no bad habits and his twenty first birthday yet to greet him."

Referee Harry Stuart

I could go on!

 

When Johnson defeated Martin the first time he was after beating Armstrong, Childs, Ferguson and Griffin...a vry impressive list, plus he regularly outboxed Ruhlin in sparring. As for the Corbett-Choynski fight they wre virtual amateurs, think Lewis-Bowe in the Olympics, bitter rivals who would go on to be elite fighters. Joe Goddard would soon bounce Choynski around and Hall bested him. No comparison with the great John L at that time.

 

i'm looking forward to seeing posters struggle to find 5 decent wins for Willard!

 

It will get worse when we get to guys like Braddock, Spinks and Briggs.

One thing that this exercise has shown me, is that Hart should probably be better regarded than Burns or Willard!

 

Then you have the second Martin fight.

Johnson had already beaten him, but it was much more decisive, so it might merit a spot?

 

One of the issues with Johnson, is that he has multiple wins over some good fighters, such as Martin, McVea and Ferguson.

Do you give him one place per fighter, or could some of them theoretically get two slots?

 

McVey is believed to have had several early fights that have gone under the radar.Jeffries himself said he would be a physical match for him as regards size ,[McVey was 205lbs for the 3rd Johnson fight,] but declined to take the fight because of Sam's colour.
I should like to say that the contributions from yourself,Jason Thomas, and Matt Donnellon have been outstanding on this thread.Objective,considered,unbiased ,and without any trace of agenda.It makes me almost regret not having participated more fully, instead of remaining on the periphery as I have done, and if a different poster had been the author of this thread I would have been happy to have engaged with it. My sincere best wishes for your future endeavours .

 

That is going to be a game changer where Johnson is concerned!