Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 8, 2020.


  1. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    i'm looking forward to seeing posters struggle to find 5 decent wins for Willard! :)
     
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  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It will get worse when we get to guys like Braddock, Spinks and Briggs.

    One thing that this exercise has shown me, is that Hart should probably be better regarded than Burns or Willard!
     
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  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Then you have the second Martin fight.

    Johnson had already beaten him, but it was much more decisive, so it might merit a spot?
     
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  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    One of the issues with Johnson, is that he has multiple wins over some good fighters, such as Martin, McVea and Ferguson.

    Do you give him one place per fighter, or could some of them theoretically get two slots?
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    One name for champion.
     
  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Jason Thomas: Johnson best 5 wins

    Jim Jeffries--Jeff was a big man, had been a most dominant champion, and as with Sullivan against Corbett, this was his only loss ever. He certainly wasn't what he had been, but one can at least ask if the fact that Johnson was bigger, stronger, and far more skilled, especially at infighting, than any of Jeff's earlier opponents had something to do with how bad Jeff looked. Jeff certainly is historically the best heavyweight Johnson defeated.

    Sam McVea--another big man. He had KO'd some good fighters like Martin. He was not at his career best, but was already considered a dangerous contender.

    Denver Ed Martin--a big fellow who could box well and was considered a rising contender.

    Tommy Burns--The reason I rate him so low is that those first three were actually bigger than Johnson. On film against Johnson, Burns looks to be a super-middle at most. He is just too small to be considered higher for me.

    Fireman Jim Flynn--others could be picked, but Flynn had some big wins over his career, including over Langford and Dempsey, although both slaughtered him in rematches.

    There are quite a number of men who could be put in that 5th spot, such as Frank Moran, Al Kaufman, George Gardner, etc. And all kinds of names who are either too old, too small, or too green.

    Mendoza: All votes are counted equally, but I cannot see Jeffries being #1. He was old, out of the ring for 6 years, and had a lot of booze and fat in his body. A shell of what he was, Fitzsimmons who saw the fight said he wasn't a quarter of the fighter he fought. Though Jeffries had a top resume, the 1910 version in my opinion wasn't great..

    You can vote for whom you choose. I put forth the following guideline::

    To define what a best win ask yourself and take in account the following:

    ) 1 The formability of the opponent when the match happened. Was the opponent Young & Green, Pre-prime, Prime, Slightly past his prime, Past his prime or shot?

    2 ) The status of the opponent when the match happened. Was the opponent champion? Was he ranked? Would he have been ranked pre 1920? How highly ranked #1, #5, #10

    3 ) The conclusiveness of the result. Did he win via KO up on points, TKO up on points, win a wide decision, win closely on points, Win via split decision, or a win via controversial decision?

    4 ) You may only list a name once ( Late rule )
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    McVey is believed to have had several early fights that have gone under the radar.Jeffries himself said he would be a physical match for him as regards size ,[McVey was 205lbs for the 3rd Johnson fight,] but declined to take the fight because of Sam's colour.
    I should like to say that the contributions from yourself,Jason Thomas, and Matt Donnellon have been outstanding on this thread.Objective,considered,unbiased ,and without any trace of agenda.It makes me almost regret not having participated more fully, instead of remaining on the periphery as I have done, and if a different poster had been the author of this thread I would have been happy to have engaged with it. My sincere best wishes for your future endeavours .
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  8. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That is going to be a game changer where Johnson is concerned!
     
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You should put your arguments forward.
     
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  10. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not many posters really know the early period, McVey's input would be invaluable.
     
  11. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Active Member Full Member

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    Well, Jeffries came into the fight considered by many, probably most, as the greatest heavyweight who had ever lived. Why was this comeback demanded in the press? Because he was the man who was expected to beat Johnson thus recovering the prestige of the white race. Jeff entered the ring a 10-7 favorite over an outstanding champion in his prime.

    So where did the hollow shell argument come from? From the way Johnson handled him. Now it is obvious Jeffries wasn't what he had been, but it is a total circular argument to dismiss Johnson's victory because he dominated Jeffries. We have no evidence on how Jeffries might have done against a different opponent.

    Basically the same is true of Sullivan against Corbett. It is the same circular logic that Sullivan was no longer any good because he lost badly to a fighter who might have been better than anyone he had beaten when he was younger and better.

    Sure age and layoffs count, but these two fights were the biggest victories by far in the careers of Corbett and Johnson. And the only defeats for Sullivan and Jeffries.

    As for the opinion of Fitz, it should be noted that his own considerable ego was involved. Fitz lost twice to Jeff. Most of his top wins were over men who also lost to Jeffries. He had reasons to exaggerate how far Jeff had gone back versus how much better Johnson was than earlier Jeff foes.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jeffries had over a year to get down to fighting weight for the Johnson fight,he came into the ring undefeated and in hard condition,a six pack stomach is evidence of his religious training.
    You can say that he wasn' t whom he had been but, if you,as the OP has , try and suggest that ,"Jackson was "in good shape" after nearly 6 years out of the ring and 37 years old with a drink problem for his fight with Jeffries,then it smacks of blatant hypocrisy and bias to then totally change your criteria when it is Jeffries as the older man coming out of retirement.
    It was Fitz's opinion that Johnson could have stopped Jeffries whenever he opened up on him.
    The problem with quotes is if you highlight one as part of your argument,you cannot then reject others from the same source and expect to retain any credibility or pretensions towards objectivity.
    It is perhaps interesting that William Brady, and Gus Ruhlin both believed and stated that Jeffries was "leery of Johnson and wanted none of his game". Both men have quotes to that effect in Pollack's Jeffries book.
     
  13. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jeffries made it very clear that he would not fight Martin as well.
     
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  14. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think that I need say a bit more about McVea.

    He probably had fourteen professional fights before he faced Johnson for the first time.

    The betting odds were 10/7 in Johnson's favor, despite the fight being in McVea's home town, probably because of Johnson's brilliant win over Martin.

    McVea had knocked out Fred Russel, who had just knocked out Hank Griffin, who had just held Jack Johnson to a draw, so this fight was not seen as a foregone conclusion.

    In his autobiography, Johnson wrote that McVea knew more about boxing than any other pugilist that he fought, with the exception of Joe Choynski!

    After their first fight the Los Angeles Express said that McVea "stood up to blows that ordinarily would kill any other man."
     
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  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I've asked. Not sure what he's waiting for.
     


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