Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

You should put your arguments forward.

 

Not many posters really know the early period, McVey's input would be invaluable.

 

Jeffries had over a year to get down to fighting weight for the Johnson fight,he came into the ring undefeated and in hard condition,a six pack stomach is evidence of his religious training.
You can say that he wasn' t whom he had been but, if you,as the OP has , try and suggest that ,"Jackson was "in good shape" after nearly 6 years out of the ring and 37 years old with a drink problem for his fight with Jeffries,then it smacks of blatant hypocrisy and bias to then totally change your criteria when it is Jeffries as the older man coming out of retirement.
It was Fitz's opinion that Johnson could have stopped Jeffries whenever he opened up on him.
The problem with quotes is if you highlight one as part of your argument,you cannot then reject others from the same source and expect to retain any credibility or pretensions towards objectivity.
It is perhaps interesting that William Brady, and Gus Ruhlin both believed and stated that Jeffries was "leery of Johnson and wanted none of his game". Both men have quotes to that effect in Pollack's Jeffries book.

 

Jeffries made it very clear that he would not fight Martin as well.

 

I think that I need say a bit more about McVea.

He probably had fourteen professional fights before he faced Johnson for the first time.

The betting odds were 10/7 in Johnson's favor, despite the fight being in McVea's home town, probably because of Johnson's brilliant win over Martin.

McVea had knocked out Fred Russel, who had just knocked out Hank Griffin, who had just held Jack Johnson to a draw, so this fight was not seen as a foregone conclusion.

In his autobiography, Johnson wrote that McVea knew more about boxing than any other pugilist that he fought, with the exception of Joe Choynski!

After their first fight the Los Angeles Express said that McVea "stood up to blows that ordinarily would kill any other man."

 

Despite the conclusive nature of the first Johnson McVea fight, the later ones seem to have generated interest.

"Among sporting men here who have followed bot, much doubt is expressed as to Johnson's ability to repeat the dose. McVea is now larger and stronger, as well as faster, and he has improved considerably in ring skill since the previous meeting, as shown by his quick disposal of Denver Ed Martin. The Oxnard man is not twenty years old, and many ring followers think that they see in him a black Jeffries."

Los Angeles Times

"It really looks as if Jeffries will have to fight a black man or quit the game. McVea's easy victory over Ed Martin has boomed the first named's stock at the coast, and a battle between McVea and Jack Johnson should now be a big drawing card. With this over, there would be nothing further to consider but a match between the winner and Jeffries."

Detroit Free Press

 

We need to say a bit about Sandy Ferguson.

He was also touted as a logical challenger for Jeffries, and like Martin and McVea, he lost his chance to Johnson.

Unlike them, he probably had better options than fighting Johnson, and he would probably have made better challenger for Jeffries than Munro.

After he got a draw against Gus Ruhlin, which many thought should have been a win, the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin wrote that his performance put him in line to meet the winner of the upcoming Jeffries Corbett fight.

The Police Gazette wrote:

"Though not quite twenty one years old Sandy weighs 226 pounds in condition and stands 6 feet 3 inches in his stocking feet. This makes him a bigger chunk of humanity then the present champion, who is no Lilliputian."

Johnson himself said:

"He is about the fastest man on his feet for a heavyweight since Corbett. He is quick, too, and is there with the punch."

If I have to name which fight I am picking, then I see the third as being the most important of the series.

 

An interesting tid bit re Choynski ,his first opponent,George Bush 1-0-0 was not only Sullivans regular sparring partner,he was his only one.
Sullivan avoided conventional sparring because he was concerned about damage to his hands.Bush used to hold a rugby ball in his hands at chest height and move around John L while the big man attempted to hit it.
A sort of primitive fore-runner of the hook and jab pads.

 

So what am I getting at, and what choices am I justifying?

1. Jeffries
I am very reluctantly putting the Jeffries fight in first place, in view of his dominance in his prime, and the lack of evidence that other fighters could have duplicated the feat.
2. McVea II
This takes second place because of its role in establishing Johnson as a standout contender. Any of the three fights could occupy this position alone, but if I have to chose one, then I select the second.
3. Martin I
Chosen because of its role in establishing Johnson as the top contender, the stylistic problems posed by Martin, and the fact that Martin was expected to win.
4. Burns
Whatever physical advantages Johnson had, Burns was the champion, and this has to count for something.
5. Ferguson III
A win over a dangerous contender, who was seen by some as the logical challenger for Jeffries, and perhaps the most capable of all the white challengers of the period.

 

After Johnson's December 1903 win over Ferguson , Jeffries was asked for a comment.
This was his response."If the public demands that I fight Johnson I will surely have to decline.
If I am defeated the championship will go to a white man,for I wil not fight a colored one.
Now mind, I am not shirking from this match because I am afraid of Johnson,for I think I could lick him as easily as the rest,but I simply will not fight a colored man for the championship.
The only regret I feel is that Sandy Ferguson did not whip Johnson.I would willingly have given him a match.
I was anxious that he should win in order that I might do so." Boston Globe December14th 1903.

 

Ferguson would have had a more successful boxing career, if he had drawn the color line.

If he had just focused on beating the white contenders, he would surely have fought for the title at some point.