Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 8, 2020.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Jeffries was in Ali like shape when he fought Holmes. 6 years of ring rust, and age + the heat. The shell fact comes from those who saw the fight.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Well, was Jeffries one of Johnson's five best wins or not in your opinion? Others are asking for your opinion. Join in on the thread, the water is fine.

    On Jackson, the press who saw him work out said he was in shape and regained his form. He didn't need to lose a lot of weight. His friends concurred and were excited that he re-gained his form. This is the press on hand I'm quoting, not Pollack, who wasn't there. Jackson had a lively round one. There was no visible decline in his game from age shown early. He got caught by a hook in round two and quickly went south. Down a few more times and that was it, he was out in the ropes and couldn't move.

    Jackson who according to George Siler was better than Jack Johnson by long odds seemed to have chin limitations. A solid puncher ( like Goddard ) could floor him, a big puncher like Jeffries, well we saw. My theory as to why is Jackson, who was built for speed had just a 15" neck which is very small for a man his size. ( Full tale of the tape measurements form the Corbett fight ) Either way Jeffries did what he should have. He didn't need 15 rounds to put a past is prime guy away, this fight was essential over in 2 rounds. Not top 5 win for Jeffries in my opinion. His resume is rather deep.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Despite the conclusive nature of the first Johnson McVea fight, the later ones seem to have generated interest.

    "Among sporting men here who have followed bot, much doubt is expressed as to Johnson's ability to repeat the dose. McVea is now larger and stronger, as well as faster, and he has improved considerably in ring skill since the previous meeting, as shown by his quick disposal of Denver Ed Martin. The Oxnard man is not twenty years old, and many ring followers think that they see in him a black Jeffries."

    Los Angeles Times

    "It really looks as if Jeffries will have to fight a black man or quit the game. McVea's easy victory over Ed Martin has boomed the first named's stock at the coast, and a battle between McVea and Jack Johnson should now be a big drawing card. With this over, there would be nothing further to consider but a match between the winner and Jeffries."

    Detroit Free Press
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    The press reports Jeffries KO1 over Martin, which could have happened early in his career. Since Martin mixed it with Armstrong so often, its possible this fight did happen.

    The color line is complicated. I think if the money was right, fighters do not turn down huge purses. As Champion Jeffries did fight Griffin in 1901, who was black. While it was only 4 rounds and he floored him a few times, it does show as champion he could break the color line. Had Griffin somehow knocked him out, he's the next lineal champion. After he beat Munroe, Jeffries did mention Johnson's name to the press as a possible next opponent. Why? Perhaps Johnson's reputation had grown since 1901 when Jeffries told Johnson you could not draw flies, then offered a private fight on the spot which Johnson refused.

    Hart vs. Johnson was billed as an elimination match. Jeffries said if there is interest, he would fight Hart, there wasn't. Fans and didn't want to see an early-round KO, which is what they saw with Munore who was durable. This is too bad, because the filming was better in 1905-1906. Jeffries vs. Hart would have shown us Hart, and Jeffries at his best.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We need to say a bit about Sandy Ferguson.

    He was also touted as a logical challenger for Jeffries, and like Martin and McVea, he lost his chance to Johnson.

    Unlike them, he probably had better options than fighting Johnson, and he would probably have made better challenger for Jeffries than Munro.

    After he got a draw against Gus Ruhlin, which many thought should have been a win, the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin wrote that his performance put him in line to meet the winner of the upcoming Jeffries Corbett fight.

    The Police Gazette wrote:

    "Though not quite twenty one years old Sandy weighs 226 pounds in condition and stands 6 feet 3 inches in his stocking feet. This makes him a bigger chunk of humanity then the present champion, who is no Lilliputian."

    Johnson himself said:

    "He is about the fastest man on his feet for a heavyweight since Corbett. He is quick, too, and is there with the punch."

    If I have to name which fight I am picking, then I see the third as being the most important of the series.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    An interesting tid bit re Choynski ,his first opponent,George Bush 1-0-0 was not only Sullivans regular sparring partner,he was his only one.
    Sullivan avoided conventional sparring because he was concerned about damage to his hands.Bush used to hold a rugby ball in his hands at chest height and move around John L while the big man attempted to hit it.
    A sort of primitive fore-runner of the hook and jab pads.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  7. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So what am I getting at, and what choices am I justifying?

    1. Jeffries
    I am very reluctantly putting the Jeffries fight in first place, in view of his dominance in his prime, and the lack of evidence that other fighters could have duplicated the feat.
    2. McVea II
    This takes second place because of its role in establishing Johnson as a standout contender. Any of the three fights could occupy this position alone, but if I have to chose one, then I select the second.
    3. Martin I
    Chosen because of its role in establishing Johnson as the top contender, the stylistic problems posed by Martin, and the fact that Martin was expected to win.
    4. Burns
    Whatever physical advantages Johnson had, Burns was the champion, and this has to count for something.
    5. Ferguson III
    A win over a dangerous contender, who was seen by some as the logical challenger for Jeffries, and perhaps the most capable of all the white challengers of the period.
     
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  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    After Johnson's December 1903 win over Ferguson , Jeffries was asked for a comment.
    This was his response."If the public demands that I fight Johnson I will surely have to decline.
    If I am defeated the championship will go to a white man,for I wil not fight a colored one.
    Now mind, I am not shirking from this match because I am afraid of Johnson,for I think I could lick him as easily as the rest,but I simply will not fight a colored man for the championship.
    The only regret I feel is that Sandy Ferguson did not whip Johnson.I would willingly have given him a match.
    I was anxious that he should win in order that I might do so." Boston Globe December14th 1903.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ferguson would have had a more successful boxing career, if he had drawn the color line.

    If he had just focused on beating the white contenders, he would surely have fought for the title at some point.
     
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  10. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    Jack Johnson

    1. Denver Ed Martin I
    2. Sam McVea II
    3. James Jeffries
    4. Tommy Burns
    5. George Gardner

    HMs: Joe Jeannette, Sandy Ferguson, Frank Moran, Jim Flynn

    A lot of depth but weak top wins.
     
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  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Well stay on Johnson until Tuesday. One interesting point. For a fighter with a good amount of title matches ( 9 ) , only one them rates as his best win.

    Jeffries was shot, period. To list him highly, which posters are welcome to, suggests a very weak list. Maybe he was Johnson's best win, despite Jeffries being old and in-active for 6 years. Would that 1910 Jeffries had beaten Martin who had a real glassy body and jaw, and the teenaged McVey? I never thought about it that way. Maybe he would have. I might revise my listing.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's interesting that one poster thinks Jackson v Jeffries was in good shape at 37 having not fought for 6 years and being an alcoholic,yet Jeffries v Johnson, who also hadn't fought for 6 years , was old and shot at 35? Jeffries fought a 33 yrs old Corbett who hadnt fought for 2 years and a36 years old Corbett who hadn't fought for a year and a half.
    A 36, [11days off 37 ,]Fitz who hadnt fought for 2 years and a 37 years old version who also hadn't
    fought for2 years.These wins, impressive as they are ,are trumpeted as great victories, I'm surprised Jeffries win over 40 years old Goddard hasn't been trotted out! The double standards applied here by one individual are patently obvious.It's really rather a shame because the input from others has been top notch.
     
  13. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    I hope it is not about me :(
     
  14. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A good list I would say.
     
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  15. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, you come under the "top notch "category on this thread.
     
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