Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 8, 2020.

  1. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    On February 17 1890 183lb Jim Corbett won a six round decision over 205lb Jake Killrain in New Orleans.

    Killrain said that Corbett was clever but not powerful, and complained that the referee did not allow infighting, which favored Corbett. Killrain seems to have landed few effective blows, and sustained a cut and two black eyes. Killrain subsequently asked for a rematch in a longer fight, which Corbett refused. Sullivan had the following to say about the fight:

    "I know this man Corbett, and I don't think for a minute that he can whip Killrain, Queensbury rules with small gloves. Killrain has been having a good time lately and was out of condition. There was no infighting allowed, and Corbett having a longer reach, got in some his and got away. He is a clever fellow no douubt, but if there is anybody in any part of the country who thinks that can stay ten rounds with Killrain with two ounce gloves, why, I've got $5000 that I will bet against $4000 that he can't."

    Muldoon who had been in Killrain's corner said:

    "Corbett was way the superior of Killrain the night they fought. Corbett has as much generalship and cleverness as a heavyweight and Jack Dempsey has as a middleweight. When time was called he jumped for Killrain, and was on top of him almost before he could get out of his corner. Killrian only hit Corbett one square blow in the six rounds."
     
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  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    On April 14 1890 Jim Corbett stopped Dominic McCaffrey in the fourth round. The Referee made the following observations:

    "McCaffrey was fought out practically in four minutes from the first call of time. McCaffrey seemed blown and amazed at a very early stage of affairs. When he failed to land, as he usually did, he just lurched in for the clinch."

    "Corbett was smiling, fresh as a daisy, strong and springy. I should not want the contract of finding a Queensbury rule glove fighter to whip him. His demonstration of outclassing McCaffrey was far more complete than Sullivan's."

    "Make no mistake of counting upon Corbett as easy game for any holder of the much coveted fistic championship of the world. He is in the program with any fighter living to give him an argument."
     
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  3. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Fascinating stuff.

    Thanks for posting.
     
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  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So what are my observations regarding the Killrain and McCaffrey fights?

    These were two of Sullivan's most important challengers, and some would argue his two best.

    While they had gone back since Sullivan fought them, they were expected to give Corbett a stiff challenge, and he won plaudits for beating them decisively.

    These fights were immediately followed by speculation that Corbett could give Sullivan a good fight, or even potentially beat him.

    For this reason I would put them high on the list.
     
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  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I don't think Corbett beat Sharkey. Corbett was on his way out when Sharkey was getting to him and his 2nd entered the ring.
     
  6. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So how do the possible contenders stack up against each other?

    The Choynski fight while very interesting historically, was a showdown between two green fighters. Neither man was anywhere near getting a shot at the title when it happened.

    The Killrain and McCaffrey fights should be classed as wins over contenders. They greatly increased Corbett's credibility as a title challenger, and even led some people to speculate that he had a chance against Sullivan.

    Sullivan of course was the champion, and that has to count for something.

    Mitchell was pretty much washed up when Corbett beat him, so I wouldn't hang too much on this fight.

    Kid McCoy was a live contender when Corbett beat him.
     
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  7. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    It says on wiki that he did beat him on points on 24 Jun 1896.

    Could this be wrong?
     
  8. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The official verdict was a draw I believe.

    This was fairly common in close fights back then, because the gamblers kept their money, and it avoided disorder.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    If we could list 5 best results, I'd put the Jackson match in for sure. Corbett also had a heck of a fight vs Jeffries in their first match. It is possible if there were film of these matches, Corbett's stock would go up, even though he didn't win either of them. On Wednesday, we move on to Fitzsimmons, and picking out his best five wins won be easy.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I will kick off with a few preliminary thoughts on Bob Fitzsimmons.

    I am assuming that we are not counting his wins at middleweight, and light heavyweight.

    I imagine that almost everybody will have his title winning effort against Jim Corbett at #1.

    For the #2 I would suggest his second win over Peter Maher. Corbett had nominally retired, and Maher was recognized as the champion my many. On this basis we are looking at a showdown between two top three heavyweights of the day. A sort of prehistoric version of Fury Wilder.

    For #3 I would suggest his win over Gus Ruhlin. Ruhlin was coming off a good run of form, and was widely seen as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title, when Fitzsimmons beat him. The fact that Ruhlin still went on to be installed as Jeffries challenger, after negotiations fell through with Bob Fitzsimmons, reflect his strong standing prior to the loss.

    The fourth place would actually go to either the DQ loss to Tom Sharkey, or the draw against Joe Choynski, if either of these fights had been awarded to Fitzsimmons. Both fighters were coming off long runs of form going into these fights, and Fitzsimmons probably deserved to win both fights.

    That is probably going to leave us rounding off the five with Sharkey II and Maher I.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  11. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    It's important to decide if O'Brian fight is included in this thread. Jack fought against many heavyweights and he was at his absolute best against very old Fitz. This could be ranked as really impressive win, but it was done within LHW limit.
     
  12. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    What do you feel about last Hall fight? I believe it was fought at heavyweight division.
     
  13. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Good shout.
     
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  14. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That is a tricky one.

    I don't think that the light heavyweight title was on the line, even though Fitzsimmons held it.

    If there was no formal weigh in, you could make a case for including it.
     
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  15. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hall refused to come down to middleweight. He was reported as 175 lbs two days before the fight, and the middleweight limit was 158 at the time. Ftizsimmons was said to be 166.5 lbs on the morning of the fight. So we are definitely looking at a heavyweight contest by the standards of the day. Opinion was divided before the fight on who would win.

    "Hall and Fitzsimmons ought to be a marvel in the way of science. I have seen both men fight, and regard them as the cleverest sort of fellows. Hall, it think ought to win. He is a man who likes his gruel, and rather relishes mixing matters with an opponent. He is what is termed a glutton for punishment. Fitzsimmons I know to be a clever fellow, and the best outfighter that ever stepped in the ring, and while I believe he will stand the gaff, I have never seen him undergo the punishment which Hall or an equally good man can administer."

    Bat Masterson

    "Hall is the harder hitter, more aggressive, and equally skillful. Fitzsimmons though is wonderfully quick, and while not such an aggressive fighter as his opponent, is not one to allow an opening to escape his notice, and is always on the lookout for that critical time known as when a man is going."

    Alec Greggains (sparred with both)

    The betting was even going into the fight, with Hall a slight favorite the week before.
     
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