Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Looks right to me

 

How was Harold Johnson not voted in the top five wins? He should honestly be at 3 for Jersey Joe

 

Louis fought two #1 contenders in 1941 (Conn and Nova). Franklin beat Simon in October '41, but broke his hand during the fight, which put him out of action for a few months. Then he lost to Pastor soon afterwards, and was never in contention again, going 2-7 after the Pastor loss.

 

Marciano’s top 5 wins

1 Walcott - Him being the champ and just beating Charles make him the top guy
2 Moore - Coming off some good wins and probably had more left than Charles
3 Charles - He had slipped more than the first two or he’d be in the top spot
4 Layne - Was a good young contender at this point
5 Louis - Clearly not the same but still had enough to be ahead of the rest

You can probably put someone like Cocknell, LaStarza, or perhaps Matthews in the 5 spot depending on how much you think Louis had left at that point

 

Here are the NBA ratings for 1941 & 1942
Dec 24, 1940
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Max Baer
Franklin not in top ten.

March 24, 1941
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Max Baer
2-----Billy Conn
3-----Lou Nova
4-----Abe Simon
5-----Arturo Godoy
Franklin breaks into ratings at #9

June 27, 1941
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Lou Nova
2-----Billy Conn
3-----Buddy Baer
4-----Abe Simon
5-----Alberto Lovell
only five listed. Franklin not one of them

Sept 9, 1941
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Lou Nova
2-----Billy Conn
3-----Buddy Baer
4-----Lem Franklin
5-----Abe Simon

Jan 3, 1942
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Billy Conn
2-----Lem Franklin
3-----Buddy Baer
4-----Bob Pastor
5-----Melio Bettina

Apri 15, 1942
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Billy Conn
2-----Bob Pastor
3-----Harry Bobo
4-----Lem Franklin
5-----Abe Simon

July 14, 1942
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Billy Conn
2-----Bob Pastor
3-----Lee Savold
4-----Pat Valentino
5-----Turkey Thompson

After being KO'd by Pastor in Feb of 1942, Franklin was KO'd by Harry Bobo and Joe Muscato, removing him from the top ten. As has been said, the window for fighting Franklin closed quickly. Note that in September of 1941 the top three contenders were Nova, Conn, and Buddy Baer, and Louis defended against all of them that summer. Demanding he jump into the ring immediately against Franklin strikes me as over the top.

 

As for Elmer Ray, here are the NBA top three ratings from 1946 to 1949

Jan 15, 1946
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Billy Conn
2-----Tami Mauriello
3-----Jimmy Bivins

April 9, 1946
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Billy Conn
2-----Tami Mauriello
3-----Jersey Joe Walcott

July 9, 1946
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Tami Mauriello
2-----J. Joe Walcott
3-----Elmer Ray

Sept 11, 1946
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Tami Mauriello
2-----J. Joe Walcott
3-----Elmer Ray

Jan 13, 1947
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----Elmer Ray
2-----Tami Mauriello
3-----Bruce Woodc-ck

April 10, 1947
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Bruce Woodc-ck
3-----Elmer Ray

July 11, 1947
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Joe Baksi
3-----Elmer Ray

Sept 11, 1947
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Elmer Ray
3-----Olle Tandberg

Dec 30, 1947
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Olle Tandberg
3-----Elmer Ray

March 26, 1948
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Elmer Ray
3-----Joey Maxim

July 9, 1948
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Lee Savold
3-----Elmer Ray

Sept 16, 1948
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Joe Baksi

Dec 21, 1948
Champ--Joe Louis
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Lee Savold

April 5, 1949
Champ-vacant
1-----J. Joe Walcott
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Lee Savold

July 10, 1949
Champ--Ezzard Charles
1-----Lee Savold
2-----Bruce Woodc-ck
3-----J. Joe Walcott

The real strong contender is Walcott. Ray had a quickly closing window. With wins over Walcott, Charles, and Savold, I think Ray really should have gotten a shot, but Louis fought the higher rated and better fighter. Note that Charles never defends against Savold, who is ranked #1 and has been around for years in the heavyweight rankings.

 

Lots of good reports, all similar. Rocky would have won clearly but a low blow cost him his best round, the eight, thereby a two point swing which made the fight very close. So close that the ref and judges gave it dead even with the ref deciding on points to give it to Rocky, based on his knockdown of Roland at the end of the fourth, the bell ending the count. UP had it 6-4 to LaStarza. Rocky claimed to be hindered by a hurt back from the second round.

 

Complaining about guys who were ranked from mid-42-45 not getting a title shot is meaningless, because the title was frozen for the duration of the war. No one, black or white, was getting a shot in those years.

It's also pretty daft to moan about Louis not fighting #3 or #4 when he was usually fighting #1 instead.

 

There seems to be a real problem grasping the impact of World War II.

Louis didn't defend the title for the same reason James Stewart didn't make movies, Bob Feller did not win games, and Ted Williams didn't hit home runs. They were in the military. Over 16 million Americans out of a population of about 130 million served in World War II.

And why bring up 1949 when Louis retired early in the year?

 

thanks

I would love to find a link and read them

 

You aren't even acknowledging that there was something called the Second World War going on. It doesn't matter where Bivins was ranked during the war. In 1942, the title was frozen for the duration. Neither Bivins nor anyone else was getting a title shot until Louis came out of the army and resumed fighting in 1946.

In 1946, Louis fought #1 ranked Conn and #1 ranked Mauriello.

In 1947, Louis fought #1 ranked Walcott.

In 1948, Louis fought #1 ranked Walcott.

Are you arguing that Louis should have disregarded his highest ranked challengers in favour of a lower ranked black challenger? Only then you'd be complaining that he ducked his #1 contenders.

 

Its a fact he knocks Louis at every opportunity .Gangster management ,aided by biased referees etc.just
unrelenting BS