Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Ingo best
Patterson
Machen
Cooper
London
Richardson

 

Ingo;
Patterson
Machen
Cooper
Erskine
Neuhaus

After Machen it drops off significently but I think everybody will have Cooper at 3. Erskine has a decent run of it around that time, Cooper, Richardson. Bysgraves, Williams, Pastrano among his victories. Nuehaus, while nearing the end, I snuck it as he boasted wins over Layne, Maxim(both faded) Cacicchi, Bysgraves and London.
I could just as easily named Bysgraves, Cacicchi(Important step for Ingo) Ten Hoff, McBride, London or Richardson. That's at least nine average wins but only two outstanding. Top two matches most champions, next three poor, overall not so bad, as you know no fighter with a losing record on his card.

 

As long as we have a lot of time, I'm going to study this. Patterson & Machen are outstanding wins, but the fall off to #3 is pretty abrupt and severe. Here are the contenders and my initial thinking.

Henry Cooper--best overall career and so on that basis #3. But hadn't done all that much yet, and was coming into the Ingo fight off KO losses to Peter Bates and Joe Bygraves. Anyone know why he got a Euro title shot after two KO losses?

Brian London--the NBA rated him the #2 contender over the last three months of 1958 after a KO of Erskine, and a TKO of Pastrano. I think this in retrospect was an overreaction. Overall, probably only behind Cooper of this group, but with the ref saying only the bell saved Johansson from a KO defeat, hard to pick this win as one of Ingo's best.

Joe Erskine--had been blown out in 1 by Nino Valdes, but otherwise a pretty strong record with wins over Cooper (2), Richardson, Williams, and Bygraves. And would later beat Pastrano in what became an in and out career. I think he has to make the list.

Heinz Neuhaus--not completely washed up, as was coming off wins over Hecht, London, Hans Friedrich (2), Joe Bygraves, and a washed up Joey Maxim, as well as a draw with Cooper. Overall, his biggest names Maxim and Rex Layne were at the very end of the line. A contender for a spot.

Joe Bygraves--was doing pretty well at the time of the first fight, and still had enough left for the occasional upset like the KO of Franco De Piccoli after the second fight, but a hard sell as a top five guy.

Hein Ten Hoff--at the end of the line, but a big fellow who had been Euro champ and as high as #5 in the NBA ratings, and this was one of Ingo's most impressive KO's, putting this big man down for the count in the first.

Franco Cavicchi--a big, impressive looking guy who ran up a strong stat record against guys I have never heard of and was coming in off a KO of Neuhaus and as the Euro champ. After Johansson KO'd him, he did nothing. Still, one must strongly consider him.

D. Richardson--another Euro champion with a number of credible wins. Bob Baker, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger. Deserves consideration.

The three to five slots should be very interesting and could ignite a nice discussion, but at first glance this is not going to be an impressive group and Ingo will end up with the weakest top five since Willard.

 

Overated fighter imo.

 

Ingo

Patterson
Machen
Erksine
Cooper
Brian London

 

My list:

1. Patterson
2. Machen
3. Erskine
4. Neuhas
5. Cooper

 

Ingo

Patterson
Machen
Erksine
Cooper
Brian London

I will second The Long Counts list.

When Brian London is in your top 5 wins, you know its a pretty mediocre resume

 

We had a lot less trouble finding five good names for some guys not traditionally rated very highly, such as Hart and Carnera.

Johansen is probably better head to head, then his resume points to.

 

I agree, I view him similary to Bowe in that aspect and that's the reason I don't view any of them very highly.

 

Ingemar Johansson

1-----Floyd Patterson
2-----Eddie Machen
3-----Joe Erskine
4-----D. Richardson
5-----Heinz Neuhaus

Not making the cut--Henry Cooper was on a four bout losing streak and coming off two KO defeats. He doesn't seem to be the later highly-ranked Henry Cooper yet. London--Ingo only luckily avoiding a KO defeat by being saved by the bell rules this one out for me.

While Ingo has a very mediocre resume after Patterson and Machen, he did beat them all. He has no embarrassing losses as other champions with better resumes often do, such as Schmeling going out in one against Gypsy Daniels. Some might mention though that it was the bell that saved Ingo from such an embarrassment against London.

 

The main impact of this thread, is that it should have a significant bearing upon the argument about the worst lineal heavyweight champions.

If we can find five solid wins for somebody, or even four good wins, then they are probably not really in contention for the dubious honor.

 

We ready for Liston? His seem mostly clear cut

 

A bit of preliminary analysis for Liston.

Probably everybody will have the Patterson wins in the #1 position, but beyond that it is complex.

Folley and Machen were both ranked #2, behind only Liston himself when he beat them, so these should really take the next two places.

Beyond that it will turn on whether you put more weight on the quality of the opponent, or their standing at the time.

For example Roy Harris was ranked #6 by Ring Magazine when Liston beat him, but I think that Cleveland Williams was either outside the top ten, or just inside it.

Bethea, DeJohn, Valdez, and Clark might all be logical candidates for a spot.