Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Muhammad Ali

1. George Foreman
2. Sonny Liston
3. Joe Frazier
4. Ken Norton
5. Floyd Patterson

 

I picked Quarry because before and after both Ali Losses Quarry was on a very good run. Patterson Hurt his back against Ali in first fight and was a sitting duck, second bout he did much better but he was older and in his final fight. Bonavena is close but Quarry little better imo

 

The Greatest (Ali)

1. Foreman- win over an ATG at his peak, best win by any heavyweight ever IMO
2. Frazier 2
3. Liston 1
4. Norton 2
5. Quarry

HM: Shavers, Lyle, Bonavena

 

The tricky thing with Ali, is separating his wins over Patterson, Ellis, and Quarry, which are quite similar.

The Norton wins might get over rated, because his resume hangs so heavily on beating Ali, so the logic becomes circular.

 

He's got Bobick, Young and Quarry. Quarry was probably past it, though. But if you even get grades for losing efforts you have to give them to him for giving Holmes such a tough, close fight.

Ellis has Quarry, Bonavena and Floyd, with the last one being disputed.

Quarry has Spencer, Floyd (disputed), MacFoster, Shavers and Lyle.

And let's not forget Terrell as a contender for this spot. Williams (close), Folley, Chuvalo, Jones and Machen (a bit washed up).

In terms of wins, I think the Ali win(s) probably gives Kenny the edge here. But perhaps it should be excluded as a case of circular logic. In that case maybe Ernie, actually.

 

In other words he depends very heavily upon the Ali win.

On paper Ellis has got it, but the majority of reporters thought that Patterson beat him, and thee are problems with the Quarry win as well.

Quarry went big game hunting, with considerable success, and he has the best results of the three against massive punchers.

Ali is not making this easy for us!

Patterson is probably the greatest of the aforementioned fighters, taking entire resumes into account. That doesn't make him the best win on the day though.

 

When this thread reaches its conclusion, all of the lists should be combined into a single post.

That will put a few things into perspective.

Some people might have bought their way out of the worst heavyweight champions debate, and some might have bought their way into it!

 

Then people might ask, why Marvin Hart was an almost reflexive answer, when debating the worst lineal heavyweight champions, while Tommy Burns wasn't!

the obvious answer is that Burns beat Hart, but even so!

 

I'd have to go with Floyd, even with the injury. That injury didn't help, but Ali was coasting to victory before it happened. That injury had no bearing on the outcome of the fight.

The guy's got Jackson x 2, Moore, Harris, London, Ingo x 2, Machen, Cooper, Chuvalo and Bonavena - and arguably also Quarry and Ellis.

 

I think:

Foreman
Frazier
Liston
Patterson
Terrell

 

Foreman, because he was right at his peak. You could also to take into account that he was younger and crushed two guys that gave Ali hell. Also that the ring and conditions on the night made Ali's plan A impossible at that age.

Frazier was a bit past his best, but he always brought it for Ali and it's never easy to rematch someone who has bested you in a brutal war like FOTC.

Liston has a case for nr 1 seeing how fearsome his reputation was and how young and relatively untested Ali was, but he didn't take the fight as seriously as he should have.

Floyd at nr 4 is the easiest choice. Had a great career and always brought his best and still had quite a few good years left in him. Yes, he was unfortunate to suffer that back injury midway through, but watching the fight do anyone really believe that effected the outcome?

Not saying that Terrell necessarily was better than Ellis, Quarry or Norton, but he was on a roll going into the fight. And if you're going face Ali at his best, it helps having the confidence of going four years unbeaten against good competition.

 

I was this close to putting Terrel over Norton but I just felt wrong keeping Norton out of top 5

 

foreman
liston
frazier
patterson
norton