Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Here is another question

Which 5 guys do you think had the best resume?

I pick Ali, Holyfield, Louis, Lewis and Foreman (yes, Foreman is a little thin after 5 but wins over Frazier, Moorer, Lyle etc. are better than most guys best wins)

 

I like your top 5, I can also see Frazier getting here. Max Schmeling is much closer than many would like to say as well.

 

Good call on Schmeling and Frazier

I completely forgot about Frazier. Frazier has more depth than Foreman regarding their best wins. However, Foreman beat Frazier and Norton, both guys would be in most peoples all time top 20 (Frazier would be in most peoples top 10 including mine). Frazier beat Ali who is obviously #1 or #2.

Foreman also has a win over a huge puncher in Lyle but Frazier has a deeper resume overall with wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Bugner etc.

Frazier vs Lewis is also interesting. I rate Frazier's win over Ali above any of Lewis's wins. However, Lewis has so many wins against big hard hitting guys like Vitali, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer etc. Interestingly, i think that while Frazier's best win is better than Lewis's best win, Lewis has more depth in his resume.

Its really close. I can see a strong case for Frazier in the top 5 even though he is #6 for me. Had Frazier had more wins over big punchers (e.g. Lyle, Shavers, etc, both of whom i think Frazier would have beaten), Frazier would be ahead of Foreman and Lewis.

Close, real close.

 

So now that the drama is done, who are the winners and losers?

Marvin Hart did better than I expected. there doesn't seem to be any weakness in his top five. Should he really be in the discussion about the worst lineal heavyweight champions?

Hart's best five wins

1. Johnson
2. Root
3. O'Brien
4. Ruhlin
5. Ferguson

The two guys who did worse than I expected, were Tommy Burns and Ingemar Johansen. I rated these two men higher than a lot of people, but they have very weak top fives.

Jess Willard and Primo Carnera did about as well or as badly as I expected, but they put a lot of blue water between themselves, and men like Burns, Johansen, Leon Spinks, and Briggs. I don't think that they are realistic contenders for being the worst lineal champion.

So this begs the question, who would be the winners and losers, if we chose ten opponents? I think that most of the men on this list would have struggled to produce ten really good wins, and if somebody did, then it would really mean something. The man that we would see in a different light then, is Jack Sharkey!

 

HOLMES WINS, I WOULD GO WITH WEAVER OVER COONEY.

 

Great thread. Going over the list of names of each man's Career Resume, I think one must really contextualize where each opponent was at that point in their career, for a true assessment. Also the manner in which the victory occurred should be important. Case in point Rocky Marciano has an incredible 5 names. 4 hall of famers and one top contender. However as we all know when he fought these men, they were slighlty past prime or shot (Louis) and that throws a little water into his boat. Someone like Wlad does well in such a scenario as 5 of his listed wins was against absolute prime, peaking fighters.
As I go over it, I was surprised that of the last 25 years only Wlad, Holyfield and Lewis top 5 wins were really good. I was somewhat surprised some of the 90s champs were really bad- Bowe, Briggs, Vitali, Moorer, Rahman, Fury all underwhelm. Fury career still in progress obviously. Bowe has the one great win, followed by a razor close win vs past prime Tubbs, then Hide Donald and Golota (if that should even be considered a win), very bad top 5 Bowe stock goes down. Briggs was awful, Moorer was bad, Vitali meh decent is best adjective i can use, Rahman has a good 1-2 and could of been solid with a Tua win as it stands he is a little weak, poor depth. Fury has a good top 2 against fading Wlad and overhyped Wilder but has done little else.
So From the end of Tyson's dominant reign back in 1990 I would say the top 3 resumes of last 30 years in division are clearly Holyfield, Wlad and Lewis.

 

My question for you guys is: who, in your opinion, has the most even top 5 wins? I mean, who has the slightest gap between #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5 wins in his resume? I'd say it's Wladimir Klitschko

 

Yes Wlad would be my pick too

My problem with Wlad is how he won those fights, i.e. by constantly holding, excessive clinching, leaning on opponents. He did this even when he wasn't hurt. This is why i dislike Wlad a great deal and its why he would never make my all time top 10 list. However, he has some good even wins.

 

Interesting thing is that Wlad did so much holding not because he was afraid of getting hit but rather because he tried to get his smaller opponent tired under the weight of his arms and body. Because he has leaned badly on small and old Mormeck who wasn't a dangerous opponent at all for him. Or against light-hitting Eddie Chambers. But he didn't hold bigger guys even when they had him hurt - he didn't try to hold AJ even once in rounds 5 or 11 when he was badly hurt, he didn't try to tie Mariusz Wach in the clinches when Wach rocked him with a big right hand to the chin in round 5. He used footwork against AJ and head movement against Wach trying to avoid getting hit when he was hurt but no clinches. Why? Because I think he was afraid that holding against bigger guys would tire him.

 

Good points, yes it was tactical. I was appalled at his leaning on Povetkin and Haye in particular.

I always believed Wlad did tremendous damage to the popularity of boxing. Referees allowed him to get away with excessive leaning and holding that no one should be allowed to get away with. I am glad we have Fury and Joshua now, both of whom are more exciting that Wlad ever was as champion.

 

I'd have Slattery 5th not Dynamite Jackson

at the time of fighting jeffries, sharkey > corbett

i dont even know where to begin with this list

where is moore??????????????

Williams > Folley

why is Moorer above Foreman

good list, only one i have major problems with is johnson