Best H2H fighter in his prime: ¿Chavez Sr. or Salvador Sanchez?

Chavez is leading by quite a large margin, which is a surprise to me. Yet while many people have said he'd win on the record, no one has said why or how. Can one of you Chavez supporters sketch a rough scenario? Chavez is obviously not winning from outside, so does he crowd Sanchez and batter him from the inside? But Sanchez was a precise counter-pruncher, and Chavez could lose phone booth fights - see most of Taylor I. Does he catch Sanchez? But Sanchez had a granite chin, and Chavez was an accumulation puncher. Does Chavez outwork him? Sanchez was one of the best-conditioned, tireless fighters I have seen. Is it just the size? But Sanchez was a huge featherweight, and I thought Chavez looked small when he went anywhere above 135.

I'd like to see a rationale basically.

 

Chavez could fight on the backfoot or front foot.

Sanchez was a master at fighting on backfoot but wasn't as good on the front foot.

Chavez I feel like was better overall fighter with more dimensions to his game.

 

Well one could say a very green Azumah Nelson was able to crowd Sanchez and be very successful in doing it. I actually had Nelson ahead on points going into the last round until Sanchez pulled it out.

Chavez had issues with Taylor because of his incredible handspeed. Whilst Sanchez is a master boxer he's not on the same level as Taylor regarding handspeed or combination punching and that was also at 140.

Sanchez is a great but I do feel like his H2H abilities get slightly overrated.

For example Chavez wouldn't be going 15 rounds with the likes of Patrick Ford or Pat Cowdell.

 

Chavez will always try to press and utilize his body punching and inside game. Sanchez will land plenty of course, but he was never a banger at 126, let alone what he might do a few pounds north. Chavez is just too big and strong and his chin is concrete. Nothing Sanchez lands will bother him much. Sanchez may or may not fold under the constant fusillade from Chavez, but he’ll see himself trying to fight off the ropes too often.

 

I guess our respective views of the Nelson fight differ considerably. First, I don't recall Nelson having much success inside; his best moments were when he was winging wild rights from mid-distance. To his credit, he did land an alarming number of them flush - though it did not have much visible effect on Sanchez. Second, I had Sanchez winning, possibly even comfortably, though I never scored the fight.

Now that you mention it, I will watch it either today or tomorrow and actually score it. It is often the case fights are a lot closer or one-sided than you thought when you score it.

But I'd also consider the context of the Nelson fight, before you make too much out of it. Nelson was an unknown fighter with maybe a dozen professional fights. I am not sure if Sanchez ever even saw film of him. So it's unsurprising if he did struggle. And if he did struggle, it's akin to Duran struggling against de Jesus in a nontitle bout. And de Jesus was a much more of a known commodity.

Good point on the Chavez-Taylor I. The hand speed difference was massive, and that would not be a factor here.

 

So I just scored the fight. I have the same impression this time as well. The fight was remarkable for how well an inexperienced Nelson did, but it was not a match where Sanchez had to pull the last round out to win:

1. Nelson.
2. Sanchez.
3. Sanchez.
4. Nelson.
5. Nelson.
6. Sanchez.
7. Sanchez (two points with a knockdown).
8. Sanchez.
9. Sanchez.
10. Nelson.
11. Nelson.
12. Nelson.
13. Sanchez.
14. Sanchez.

So my scorecard was Sanchez 134-31 Nelson.

 

I should score this. Been ages.

 

Yes, I'd love to hear more round-by-round cards.

 

@FighterInTheWind @salsanchezfan This is my scorecard from a few years ago.

Salvador Sanchez vs Azumah Nelson

1 Nelson
2 Nelson
3 Sanchez
4 Nelson
5 Nelson
6 Sanchez
7 Sanchez 10-8 knockdown
8 Sanchez
9 Sanchez
10 Nelson
11 Nelson
12 Nelson
13 Nelson
14 Nelson
15 Sanchez wins by TKO

134-131 Nelson

Only my 2nd time watching this fight and i knew Nelson did good in this fight but i don't remember him doing this good. This fight had 3 different momentum swings the first 5 rounds Nelson bullied Sanchez with effective aggression and anytime Sanchez threw a punch Nelson jumped on him immediately.

Rounds 6-10 were all Sanchez he seemed to find something with the left hook and anytime he landed it he seemed to hurt Nelson and also dropped him with it in the 7th round.

Going into the 10th round it seemed to me Sanchez was taking over as he'd had a really good 9th round and hurt Nelson. But amazingly the fight then shifted momentum once again as Nelson was able to do what he did in the first 5 rounds. And that's be the effective aggressor jumping on Sanchez and bullying him in close.

I could see though that Nelson was getting really tired in 14th round and even though he won it IMO you could see the sand was running out of his hourglass. Going into 15th round Sanchez went out there with a purpose Sanchez hurt Nelson again with the left hook and dropped Nelson with a series of punches. Nelson got up bravely but was badly hurt and exhausted, and after another barrage from Sanchez the referee makes a good call and stops the fight.

Overall great fight and a better fight than i remember and also a better performance from Nelson than i remember. A few things i want to say is that Sanchez is known for his right hand but it was his left hook that was his best weapon here showing that Sanchez can hit with either hand. Nelson was green but i always say to these people that say Nelson was green how many of the top 10 Featherweights then would you have picked over the Nelson that fought Sanchez ? Sanchez still deserves credit for beating a green but very strong/determined fighter and future great fighter and staying cool/calm/collected under the amount pressure Nelson brought to him.

 

Chavez considering we never got to see a prime Sanchez. No, Sanchez was not in his prime at 23 years old. Just because he was doing great things at a young age doesn't mean he was in his prime.

 

Well, we don't know whether he was in his prime or not. He may well could have been, because fighters in lighter weights generally hit their primes earlier. He also had a reputation for partying, which isn't ideal for longevity. Finally, we can't judge the trajectory of 80s fighters by today's time-line. Fighters fought more often back then, and against superior competition, leading to more wear and tear.

 

He just turned 23 years old and had been a world champion for only 2 years. It’s extremely hard to believe that he was at his best during that time just because he was advanced for his age. It wasn’t like Sanchez looked like a finished product either. He still had areas in his game where he could have grown and potentially gotten better. Honestly, we will never truly know. Maybe by the time he’s in his mid to late 20s, he could have started to show decline. But IMO, I felt like he was just getting started on who he could potentially become.

 

To rebut you, I'd have to regurgitate myself on why Sanchez could have been in his prime. So I won't do that. But I do want to stress I didn't say that Sanchez WAS in his prime, merely that he COULD HAVE BEEN. We don't know for sure, and that is why Sanchez is generates so much discussion.

As an aside, my instinct is actually to believe most of those promising athletes whose lives were cut early were over-rated and would not have amounted to much. I call it the "JFK syndrome." Obviously, Sanchez was different, and he was in fact special and not just ether.

 

i say chavez too. no knock on sanchez who i have great respect for and love watching his fights.

 

Fair enough. I get that you are not saying Sanchez was in his prime, just that it is possible. I just lean the other way because I think there is a meaningful difference between greatness and completion. Sanchez was without question special but I think there were tools in his shed that he hadn't fully sharpened yet. The tragedy is we never got to see how refined the final version could have been.