Best losing effort: Duran-Hagler or Whitaker-DLH?

SH is a legend. When he writes, i read. It's fun to bounce a guy like him for his thoughts and insights. Good to see you still gracing around mate.

 

Duran went from LW and fought the Middleweight king at the time, someone who had dominated for almost a decade, and pushed him all the way. Sweat Pea probably won, but Durans achievement was superior IMO. That's why i have him a lock for top 5 ATG.

SRL
Greb
Armstrong
Ali
Duran
:deal

 

Mine came from Boxing Illustrated. Most of "the rest" were names I hadn't even heard of. Right though, very few indeed gave Duran a chance -though many of the ex-middleweight champs did not write off Duran. LaMotta, Fullmer, and Basilio showed real respect, which I found interesting.

 

Most of us know or -at least suspect- when we've pummelled the opposition in these fun little debates. I never got that feeling in any of my matches with John Thomas. Not one. He knows when to roll, when to fire, and when to concede a point -he's like to trying to punch a #*!$% cloud.

 

Whoa. WHOA!!!

Is that SRL I see up there at number one? -in GREB's rightful place?! At least tell us you meant SRR.

 

You mean Langford's rightful place :deal

 

Duran does get far too much credit for the Hagler performance,if we're being honest here.He was soundly beaten and spent the vast majority of the fight in a timid,cautious state,not making any real attempt to win the fight.


If Duran can receive this amount of praise for what was largely a survival effort,can you imagine the status he would be held in if he fought with the same courage and tenacity against Hagler as Evander Holyfield did against Riddick Bowe? He'd be a god!

 

Holy had god on his side though.

 

You too, JT. I haven't been posting regularly, recently. Always good to pop in and let people know I'm still alive. :good


PS: I got Sugar Ray Leonard's new autobiography a few weeks ago. It's good to hear it all from the horses mouth - Leonard himself. I also have James Haskins' book on Leonard too.

Over the last 3 years, good books have been released on Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Ray Leonard. Throw in "Sorcery at Ceasars - Sugar Ray's Marvelous Fight", for good measure.

George Kimball, who wrote, "The Four Kings", would have been a great author for a book on Marvin Hagler. Pity, as he recently passed away. Whenever, and if, we do get a book on Hagler, the title is a no-brainer......Marvelous.

 

Far too much credit? This fight is practically forgotten outside of ESB Classic. Even it were nearly as discussed as Hagler-Hearns or Leonard-Hagler, Duran deserves at least an eyebrow raised up over your hairline if only because of its historical significance.

Don't buy it? Name another natural lightweight who went 15 rounds with the world middleweight champion. Name another natural lightweight who could have stood in there and gone the distance with a 29/31 year old Hagler in '83.

I see none- not the Great Bennah, not Pernell, not Ike Williams, not Ortiz, not nobody.

 

I would take Whitaker to give Hagler a decent fight at middleweight. Certaintly judging by Whitaker's highest weight contest - a 12 round win over Vasquez at jr-middleweight, combined with Hagler's hesitant showing against Duran.

Whitaker weighed in at 153 3/4lbs, when he fought Vasquez. I'm sure he could handle a pound, or two, more.

Note: This would have to be a Hagler fighting the same way as he did against Duran. So, anyone looking to counter-punch this post needs take this into consideration. I'm not at all saying that Whitaker would take any version of prime Hagler the full route.

Whitaker's jab was awesome against Vasquez. It was pretty much a boxing lesson from the outside over the 12 rounds. This weapon would almost certainly cause Hagler some problems if he stood off, cautiously, as he did against Roberto.

Prior to facing Hagler, Duran had been in with two noted punchers when past his prime. Leonard and Hearns. Getting KO'd by Hearns, no shame in that. He needed that good beard of his down the stretch against Marvin.

The only serious puncher that Whitaker faced past his prime was, Trinidad. Ok, he did hit the canvas, but he lasted the 12 rounds. This was a Whitaker who was 4 years older and shot, rather than the heaviest ever one who faced Vasquez.

My guess is that a well contioned, Whitaker, could take Hagler's punches. Although not too many of them. I have no doubt that he could take what Duran had thrown at him.

Whitaker never once went 15 rounds in his career. Thats a big question mark in the outcome of this fight. Could be stand up to Hagler and take him the distance? He certainly has the defense, durability and outside game to make the alarm bells ring for the a Hagler who employs the exact same strategy as he did against Duran.

 

Modern era, brother, modern era (though I'd probably still take Greb).

 

You make a good argument.

...though I don't see Whitaker surviving against Hagler. He was smaller than Duran and significantly weaker than Duran. Note that Hagler would never have fought Whitaker the way he fought Duran as Whitaker and Duran were very different fighters with different assets.

In the end, Whitaker would not beat Hagler for the same reason, in my opinion, that he would not beat Duran -he would not have the firepower to keep either off. While firepower is not so important all the time, particularly when speaking of the great Whitaker in H2Hs, it is almost a deal-breaker in these two scenerios.

 

The great Kirkland Laing and Benitez did OK. Infact, they clearly defeated him.

 

I don't think that, Whitaker, would need strength as he has the durablity and chin to take what was thrown at him, then get out of there. He's wise enough, and skillful enough for that matter, to defend when the heat was thrust upon him, then create distance. He's got the tools to avoid a physical fight for long periods. And his main ingredient - his style, is enough to make a serious aggressor very tentative to get off as authoritively as he usually does. I think that Whitaker has the tools to hang in there with physically stronger and more powerful fighters than himself. As he showed in a few fights during his career. While, he never quite had the 'all out' movement of a Leonard, he's got enough at lightweight to give Duran fits. Throw in a sublime jab, complex defense, durbality, etc, and you have a real puzzle that Duran never faced as a lightweight.

I do conceed, for any chance of him beating Hagler, he'd need to face a cautious one who stood off him, as his legs wouldn't be the same as they were at lightweight. He certainly wasn't as nimble on his toes as he was in his prime. Duran just needed little steps to the side with Hagler, as Marvin wasn't just borring in against him. Duran was smart enough to move, yet not in large patches. Why? Cause he never needed to with the way Hagler fought him. Duran did enough to keep safe, yet he was always within that range to get off with weaponry of his own. I think Whitaker could maybe pull this off. He might not have the strength and power that Duran had in his right but, that jab would be on the money more regularly than Roberto's.