Best Muay Thai Fighter Ever ????

Samart Payakaroon.

I post this highlight every chance I get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLD7hEzZEs

Wikipedia has his record as 129w 19l and 2 draws.

Samart also has a boxing record of 21-2, and was WBC super bantam champ.

 

Oh, forgot to say that he was Lumpinee champ in 4 weight classes.

 

I think Rob Kaman must be in with a shout for the best kickboxer/ muay thai fighter ever.

 

Buakaw isnt even top 10 of this era. He didnt achieve any real fame through muay thai at all. Saenchai is the no 1 current no question

 

Buakaw didnt achieve all that much in muay thai itself. He did good in kickboxing though which is another sport entirely. He was far from the best thai in thailand though.

 

p4p Samart Payakaroon for sure

 

Whos's Greatest Muay Thai Fighter ever?????………….well it absolutely ain't Dekkers and it absolutely most defiantly ain't Kamen.

So who is it? Well in his prime he'd be under 140lbs and Thai. He'll have probably trained and fought as a pro since the age of around 8 and have had well over 200 pro fights. He'd have started in the sport at a tender age out of dire financial need and lack of a meaningful opportunity in life as opposed to a leisurely pursuit of a pastime or recreational curiosity. He'd have probably been passed his prime by 25 and may well have made very little money out of his career. He'd probably have won a version of either the Lumpinee or Rajadamnern Stadium belt in multiple weights and will probably be unknown to most of the world outside Thailand except to a few hardcore hardcore Muay Thai fans.

It's an insane question to start with, it's like asking whose the best pasta maker in Italy?! Muay Thai is the national sport in Thailand, a diamond in their many cultural gems that's deeply embedded in the national psyche. There are on average around 65,000 professional fighters at any one time all fighting and competing on the slickest, most competitive and well oiled fight circuit in the world. Bangkok is THE fight city with at least 5 major cards of elite level Muay Thai every week not to mention the 100s of local regional cards that happen on a routine basis every night of the week up and down the country. The country produces more professional fighters each year than the rest of the world probably produces Queensbury rules boxers combined….the idea that the Muay Thai GOAT could be non Thai is as ridiculous as saying the USA makes the best Dim Sum! The gulf in quality and technique between Thais and foreigners is worlds apart, **** that I'm being polite, the difference is galaxies apart. In most cases its a different as Champions league football and a local kids game. There are very very very few foreigners who can hang and mix it on equal terms with a top Thai or even averageThai. Sure the number of foreigners that can compete with Thais has steadily been increasing since the 80s, but the % is still very very low. "Real" Muay Thai is all about the Thai scene below 140lbs and I doubt that'll ever change, unless……….gambling is banned tomorrow. There are a few quality famous & not so famous foreign fighters who have fought bravely, technically well and exceptionally bravely over the years, but the numbers are low.

Dekkers was a warrior, we all know that. He was a great pioneering fighter who kicked the doors down for westerners early on. He was the first foreigner to really go over there take on the Thais on level terms in their own house and start knocking the big boyz on their arses! He's a legend and hero to many including myself. He was my idol in the late 80s and early 90s as I was starting out. Every generation since has held him up as the epitome of how and what a western Muay Thai fighter aspires to, recognition in Thailand. He's the only foreign Muay Thai fighter your average Thai has heard of. HOWEVER, he lost more to Thais than he won and some of his most famous victories weren't really to the top Elite guys. Despite having dynamite hands and feet he was a product of his age and never really understood tyne clinch or the importance of knees to FTRs especially in Thailand. Where do you all think the term "Dutch Muay Thai" comes from? Those early days when westerners were fighting Thais basically without any knowledge of the clinch, it just so happens the most successful of that era were the Dutch. He was no Muay Thai GOAT and hither was Kamen who again was great technical fighter was really too big to have fought the best Thailand had to offer. The Thais he did fight were tough, but there really aren't that many in that weight region, so under no circumstances can he be considered a Muay Thai GOAT. In Kickboxing he has a better shout.

So what about Buakaw? Buakaw is the epitome of what the Thai MT factory produces best, tough, reliable technical all rounders who don't excel at any one thing but put it all together fluidly, are as tough as nails and come with bundles of experience . As Stillwill has already said he's never won a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern belt. These two stadium belts are more prestigious and valued than a World Title Belt. World titles are more about foreigners so the belt is somewhat devalued. Its the two stadium belts that mean something. The biggest Thai title Buakaw won was at Omnoi Stadium which is still a good stadium but it aint Raja or Lumpinee. Omnoi is where the guys on the up meet the guys on the down, it's not elite by Thai standards (although it would be by foreign standards). Buakaw isn't a MT GOAT he isn't even in the same building as most MT ATGs especially if you consider he made his name in a different sport….K1 kickboxing. I'm a massive fan of the guy, I even named my son after him, he's a brave fighter who's always entertaining to watch, but more importantly it's what he did outside the ring that made me really like him… he took on the powerful Thai Muay Thai establishment in court and got himself a better deal. No fighter ever had done that before, he set a precedent that may or may not help the underpaid human slaves that many Thai MT fighters are.

Buakaw's timing was great. Just as K1 were looking to expand into the lower weight categories with Max he was the right Thai guy around the right weight class with a connection through Ingram's Gym to Japan at the right time. He looked physically like a cartoon character of a stereotypical MT warrior, dark & ripped who would suit Japanese taste as he liked to use his hands and feet. He's the first real Thai fighter to have made his name abroad in any big way like this outside of fight circles, but it's not really because of his MT skills. When he was winning only on Thai events in Thailand he was just another boxer. The timing was right for him, the early 2000s, MMA got bigger & bigger more pepole started to watch K1 & MT from MMA, which all coincided with the rise of the internet, satellite tv etc etc etc & a hence a combat star was born. The average Thai has only taken notice cos the rest of the world has. Remember, Thais like being big fish in a small pond, by nature they aren't great migrators like the Phillipinos, so when they here noise from abroad they assume it must be good or important. The subsequent lawsuits between him and Por Pramuk, Thai Fight etc have also been hammered across the media so people are aware of Buakaw but few Thais have seen him fight most Thais have only seen him on some form of celebrity TV show or quiz.

Buakaw is known a little by people who don't watch boxing cos he's appeared on the the celebrity driven national TV networks and newspapers as an international Thai star who is bringing recognition to Thailand from abroad. He is probably the only current Muay Thai fighter many Thais could name if you asked them! I bet most have never seen him fight. The average Thai couldn't tell you who a Lumpini or Raja champ was except for gamblers, people involved in the fight game and hardcore fans.

The thing is most of the "bigger" Thais, Buakaw included, have already had their glory days before most people outside Thailand really get to have a good look at them. They are in their fight primes when they are fighting on the Thai scene at lower weights and at younger ages. Once they reach that welter/super welterweight they're usually late in their careers and can’t cut the weight as much anymore. They then go on the international circuit, where they become international stars with much of their Thai fight history largely unknown to the new international fight fans that are watching them. So essentially the moment they start making their name in the West and Japan they are “over the hill”, but still have so much experience and skill they can compete and most often beat their foreign opposition despite the fact they are on an inevitable slide due to age and battle weary bodies. Remember before the west sees them some have had over 200 fights and are bloody ancient by Thai Muay Thai standards 26, 27 28…..

Buakaw ain't no GOAT & Thai Fight is a laughing stock interms of match making. The promotion is owned by a TV tycoon and was dreamed up at the height of Buakaw's fame to cash in on the average Thais nationalist sentiment by watch Buakaw and a gaggle of other "heavier" Thai fighters take on & bash up the latest batch of foreign fighters who most of the time are in way over their head. 2011 was the last time Thai Fight had any meaning. Anyway, Buakaw now fights for a rival promotion called Max, he's being sued by Thai fight. Thai recently reinvented itself in a traditional bare knuckle Kard Chueuk format but I'd say is largely dead in the water, it's lost all credibility.

Got to cont in another post lack of space....

 

So who are the GOATs or ATGs? No one can argue with list you posted except fort many notable exceptions. The truth is the country has produced probably hundreds & hundreds of fighters who all have a good shout at atop ten ATG list from the 60s through to the Golden age of the 80s & 90s to 2000 and now. This is a question the Thais never debate, it doesn't occur to them to debate a P4P fighter let alone an ATG or GOAT, cos it's an impossibility of such giant porportions in Thai Muay Thai, they just produce way to many quality fighters. It all comes down to style, preference and accomplishments so everyones list will be vastly different, but I think the top fighter from each of the great eras most people will probably agree on. It's funny cos there not really the kinda fighters I like to watch I prefer the warriors like Bovy, Samson, Vereaphol, Coban etc. etc

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. A lot of people will say Apidet or Diesel Noi, but Poot is kinda like the Muhammed Ali of Muay Thai, at the height of his prime and fame he "left" was forced out the sport for 10 years then came back and kicked ass all over again. He still fights now in his 60s and wins! He was a technical maestro that was ahead of his time and fought in an era of big names like Pudpatnoi, Apidet & Srimongkol etc He's technical influenced many later ATGs including Ole, Hippy and Seanchai to name just a few. He also debuted at no 4. in the world boxing rankings but due to managerial problems never fought more than a few Qeuens bury fights. Bear in mind he fought & beat Seansak Muangsurin on all 4 occasions they met! When I asked him who he thought was the MT ATG he mentioned himself, then Samart & then Seanchai who very often uses one of Poot's trademark moves a step to the left double counter kick. Poot and Samart had a demo match in patty in the 80s and rumour goes he got the better of Samart……here's the Magazine cover featuring the fight:

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Struggling to imbed the pic.

Poot HL:

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. Well we all know about Samart and what he achieved in both MT and Queensbury not to mention being probably the most natural fighter many people have ever seen. I'll post the HL again to keep some symmetry and to give Rev another boost.

[yt]5VLD7hEzZEs[/yt]

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. Current P4P Muay Thai king who's beaten all the best Thais and foreigners that have been put in front of him. He fights sometimes as often as twice a month (imagine P4P king floyd doing that!) and regularly fights the best foreigners about sometime 3 weight class above him and then drops down to take on the best Thais sometimes within weeks! He has done it all in MT multiple stadium belts, World championship belts you name it. He's crossed over a little into the KB world and won yet hasn't crossed over into the Queensbury rules world yet (I'dont think)…….he's a tricky technical maestro with bags of power. He's the kinda fighter you just know what he's gonna do yet you just can't stop it coming. Is the GOAT like many say who knows only time will tell…………..

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By the way sjp17 if you're really interested in Muay Thai greats check the Muay Thai Kickboxing ATG thread it's a 59 page jugganaught of all MT related info:

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