Best overall grappler out of these fighters

When you watch a high level BJJ match from the early 90s, and compare it to Jacare or Roger, the change in the level of the game is just obvious.

 

When's the last time you seen Rickson grapple?

 

No competition? Really?

Well here's the famous video of Rickson Gracie grappling and SUBMITTING top rival Rigan Machado. This is not a points victory. It's a submission via choke. I ask you in all seriousness which opponents did BJ Penn submit during his jiujitsu run that actually rivaled Rigan Machado in terms of skill or class?

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Well obviously "no" is an exaggeration, but its completely obvious that BJ went through a much larger field of competition, and was still not near his peak.

The BJJ mundials weren't even formed when Rickson was the world champion, there was no real international presence, there wasn't even much of a presence outside of sao paulo and rio, it was a local phenomenon.

The Torrance CA academy didn't even open until 1990; the growth of the sport from the time Rickson was at his best, to now, is unbelievable.

Then of course there is the obvious fact that BJ outgrappled Renzo and Rodrigo, but of course that doesn't count because Rickson was a thousand times better right?

Rickson is a legend, a pioneer, and was the best of his generation, but for some reason to suggest that anybody has ever been better, in a sport that has grown at light speed, offends people, its absurd.

 

As in when did I last watch a video of him in the past, or whats the latest thing I've seen him do? If its the later, there isn't really anything with him in anything competitive for about a decade. Even past that competition footage is few and far between.

Wanderlei Silva told Rickson he was living in a fantasy world when he put down Nogueria, and apparently some of you live in that same world. Times change, things progress, add to that fact that the sheer volume of people doing BJJ has exploded since Ricksons day, and what you have is a level of competition that has gotten higher every day.

 

No, what's absurd is to suggest that BJ Penn is better grappler than Rickson. Based on 1 single tournament. And... takedowns in mma?

 

That my friend is pretty ridiculous to even stick it in this conversation. Go look up what Rickson said about Nogueira or other top MMA fighters etc. Yes, what Rickson said is absurd. What W. Silva said was right. It has 0 bearin on our conversation.


And he has grown with the competition. Do you not understand that he is one of the SOURCEs of the growth? He's not the same Rickson as he was 13 years ago. He has learned things, he has CREATED things. He is a MUCH better grappler than he was than DISPITE him not being in his prime HEALTH and STRENGTH.

 

Tatame: In the last PRIDE show, you said that Shogun will be your successor. Are you already thinking about retiring?





Vanderlei: No way... When a guy retires, he starts to tell stories about having 400 fights, street fights, and ends up becoming a legend. I'm a real fighter. A real champion is made by titles and results. I keep saying that I'm in the middle of my carreer, I have 35 fights and I want to have 70. Today, thank God, I don't need to fight for money anymore. I fight because I like it and I want to get to 70 fights.





Tatame: The challenge you made to Rickson on Tatame TV was big news. Will it happen?





Vanderlei: The promoters will put up the money, but the guy (Rickson) will want to ask for 5 million US dollars... It won't be able to take place like that. He wants to make almost the same money as me (being sarcastic), the champion... To tell you the truth, I made the challange, but I know it won't happen. Mainly because he's at an advanced age. My only thing is with the comments he made. If he wanted, he could use his fame to help propel the sport, have an event, or maybe help promote the sport around the world. But instead he defames the athletes who are actually fighting, saying that the level of fighter is low and that Minotauro has no guard. That's absurd! Minotauro is part of vale-tudo history. The fight he had against Bob Sapp... what was that??? So, I feel that Rickson is living in a fantasy world, like Star Wars. The things he said left me upset, and I will always challenge anyone who talks bad about my sport.

 

Yes, he has, but to pretend that Health and Strength aren't real factors is pretty silly. BJ has the same opportunity to learn as Rickson, actually he has more opportunity; more top grapplers to train with, more wrestling coaching, more sparring partners, and he is in his physical prime.

 

The 2000 mundials is not the basis of thinking BJ is better, its just one piece of evidence of many, its just indicative of my point. He was the first non Brazilian to win, mostly because there were not very many non Brazilians competing before that, and even less, if any, before 96. He was the quickest to win it, which speaks to his ability to learn quickly.

Seeing BJ's wrestling against Gomi, Hughes, and countless other incredibly good wrestlers, and watching Rickson's wrestling against Takada and Funaki, its obvious that BJ has much better wrestling. Or if you want to go on hearsay and training, Randy Couture said BJ was one of the hardest opponents he ever tried to take down.

 

Not to mention Fedor, who medaled in the 98 Russian Judo championships, is a multiple time world combat Sambo champion, and has outgrappled every fighter ever placed in front of him, except possibly Arona. Judo in Russia is a much bigger sport than BJJ in Brazil, even Judo in Brazil is still more popular than BJJ, and it especially was in 98.

The question is, after all, best "overall" grappler, which has no one definiton; to me it means who can actually use their grappling ability in the most realistic situation, with the least rules protecting them.

 

To quote Marc LAimon.."Marcelo Garcia is the real Rickson Gracie"
Wandarlei Silva: " Rickson is living in a fantasy world" sorry just had to repeat that lol

Can you imagine Rickson against Chuck...my my..

 

Heres Helio, Ricksons father talking about his mythical 400-0 record..

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Thanks for showin how irrelevant that is.

 

Yes it's important. But are we talking about P4P here?
Whats the criteria under which we will judge grappling? The ability to stay up? Ability to take someone down? Ability to submit someone?
If you say all, then what has more weight? Cause taking someone down is a 10th of what grappling is. I put submitions and control on the GROUND under a much higher value when we talking about "grappling".

I love your double standards. It is known that Rickson won wrestling tournaments. Where's the proof of BJ Penn even competing in wrestling hmm? Show me where he beat Matt Hughes in WRESTLING.

Fedor is a great grappler. He is not as technical as Rickson in no way except perhaps Judo/Sambo throws/clinches. Fedor excels at doing few things right. He has few techniques that he practices day in and day out. They work for him. Can he out-grapple Rickson in Prime vs Prime... tough question, I don't think so. If punchin is involved Fedor might even SUBMIT Rickson in under 2 minutes.

Chimba, Helio is talkin about how Rickson counts all the tournaments and amateur matches. Which is actually much more fair than what many people think.

Bottom line when you speak of pure grappling I can't see anyone being better than people who do it as their day job, hobby, and passion. When you talking about people like Fedor, BJ Penn, they have too many other things that they have to worry about other than grappling.

There's no way any of those guys a better grapplers than Rickson.