Best performance by Larry Holmes

I'm gonna go with ****ey. He boxed a masterful fight and with the exception of a few rounds, pretty much dominated a dangerous and well credentialed opponent in his prime.

 

Would you say Kooney was at his best in that fight?

 

I acknowledge the fact that he had only fought 54 seconds in something like 20 months, which I have argued in his defense before. It would have been preferable if he had fought within at least 6 months prior to facing Holmes and ideally against an opponent who gave him some rounds. But he was at least 25 years of age, in good condition, undefeated, with a size and youth advantage and working with a solid team of trainers and managers. That's more than can be said for Tim Witherspoon who had 15 pro fights and had his jaw broken in his last bout. Or Norton and Shavers who were past their best and headed towards a very steep downward slope. Or Leon Spinks who was 10-2-2 and not particularly known for taking training seriously.

 

I think he was. Judging by his performance , it was one of his best nights.

 

Earnie Shavers I, where he took 34 out of 36 minutes. In early 1982, Holmes himself said this was his best performance to that time in an interview.

Tex Cobb. In retirement, he's said he felt his best for C00ney, but I prefer his championship distance shutout over Cobb to close out that year. (Flash Gordon also strongly favored Holmes-Cobb, which deserves a new voice over by somebody not named Cosell.) His stamina was though to be fading, and he was suspected by some to be rapidly aging, but Cobb showed none of that.

Leon Spinks was at his heavyweight peak going into his challenge of Holmes after stopping a peaking and deadly Mercado, and many predicted Leon would regain the title, but Larry literally crushed him out at will.

Ray Mercer was a clinic. Holmes, as a cagey old fart in the corners, would have been a nightmare for either old Foreman or the youthful George of Kinshasa.

Paul Poirier. The right hand body shot Larry separated his rib cartilage with literally rippled through Paul's entire body, as seen on the footage, causing a seven second delayed knockdown. Poirier, who had previous been stopped by Alex Stewart and Tony Tucker said that was the hardest punch he was ever hit with. It might actually indeed be the hardest single punch Holmes ever hit anybody with, and while Paul gamely tried continuing on for a while, it was over. This was essentially a one punch body shot win by Larry, something you wouldn't see from Ali.


Because it was public knowledge Holmes was hampered by an injured left going in, I can't rate Norton among these performances. Larry would have blown him out with two healthy arms, but Ken was able to rally because of that hindrance. A great bout, but not the best performance by Holmes after the first seven rounds.

 

Tie between Earnie #1 and the Ali bout. Larry doesn't get the credit for the Ali fight because of what Ali didn't do that night. But that was Holmes at his best and he was going to be a very tough guy to beat on that night. Focused/in top shape/motivated/etc. And he threw the best left hooks of his career against Ali.

 

Excellent criteria (not coincidentally inverting my own against choosing Norton). Holmes may have had the weakest left hook of any great heavyweight champion preceding the conclusion of the championship distance era. Ali could key his hook to wins in Manila and against Bonavena, but Larry's hook wasn't usually a major factor, except when the orthodox thinking that he had to have it primed for Muhammad came to the fore.

Holmes evolved over the years in a way Ali didn't. Prior to the arrival of Eddie Futch, Larry lifted his left leg before throwing his right, tipping it off. Futch put a stop to that telegraphing.

For his final successful defense against Carl Williams, the key to Holmes pulling it out was late round body work.

As certain skills and abilities declined, he replaced them with others. You wouldn't have likely seen him suckering anybody into the corners during his athletic peak the way he did Mercer. Nor was he somebody who might have been expected to stop somebody on the strength of a single body shot the way he did Poirier.

I'm not sure I've ever seen an orthodox heavyweight fly around the ring counterclockwise better than he did in Shavers I.

Tyson was never a bout he was going to win at his age with an 18 month layoff, the lack of time he had to prepare, then he threw it away in front of a horrified Michael Spinks when he started out dancing and tried to replicate 1978. ("What are you doing? Concentrate!")

Because he evolved, he was able to dramatically extend his career through the 1990s after the Tyson debacle. Ali didn't really evolve like that, but instead relied on the toughness and ability to take a punch which he discovered he had upon his return from exile. (That may have proved his greatness, but Muhammad's been paying for that many years now.) Larry freely admitted he borrowed liberally from Foreman's own comeback when Holmes himself returned to action. (Before their aborted rivalry, Larry and George actually had a good relationship.) If Holmes thought it might be useful and usable to him during his 90s career, he'd add it to his toolbox, and the case has been widely made that his only two legitimate defeats are the ones he himself has conceded, to Tyson and Holyfield.

 

I'll go with the ****ey fight. That fight was hyped to the maximum and Larry Handled the pressure well. He fought a disciplined, smart fight and didn't get dragged into slugging with ****ey. The fight was not as close as the cards suggested and Larry finished the job in style. He knew Gerry would be in trouble if he dragged him into the deep waters of the championship rounds and that's how it played out.

 

Very well put.

 

Gerry ****ey

 

While its hard to pick against the Norton match or the ****ey fight, I personally like Larry's flawed efforts best, such as Shavers II, Weaver, Snipes and Witherspoon.

Why?

I like my heavyweights dragged deep into the mud where they are forced to show greatness (if they have any beyond skill and athleticism).

I draw a big distinction between greatness and skill.

In the matches I have chosen Holmes either wasn't at his best, he messed-up or a combination of the two with maybe a little underestimation of his opponent thrown in for good measure.

Weaver tuned him up proper for the greatest moment of duress he would have to face three short months later. Weaver busted Larry up, disrupted his rhythm, twisted his jaw, popped his eardrum and messed his legs up more than a few times. It forced Holmes to become the cagey gambler; it brought out his true character and championship pedigree.

Ernie Shavers shot Holmes with a gun! The impact of the canvas woke Larry up (by his own account). He got up, slammed it into red alert, bounced on his feet to clear his head and because of the lesson learned a scant 90 or so days earlier (in front of the world, no less) he was in THE BEST condition of his career, save for the Ken Norton classic. At 210lbs Holmes recuperated, switched gears and meticulously disassembled the consensus hardest puncher in heavyweight history.

Renaldo Snipes was undefeated with a 50% KO ratio (if I recall correctly) when he stepped in against Holmes. Unproven, Snipes found a momentary open window on the in-cruise Holmes, who by that point in the contest figured the coast was clear. Holmes crashed, bounced again off a turnbuckle, recouped, slammed the shifter from 2nd to 4th and boxed Snipes ears off...winning the remaining period of the very round in which he had almost lost it all. Damned proficient (screw up aside).

By all accounts, the 33 year-old Holmes had lost a step. Such was the talk after surviving Tim Witherspoon. By Larry's account he had eaten too many simple carbohydrates and probably drank the wrong things.....which forced him to spend unforeseen time in the men's room. The result was a loss of weight and no doubt invaluable electrolytes. For anybody who has taken part in anything that requires great focus, strength, grit and speed....having the scoots just before is murder for getting the best out of your body. If my memory serves, he and his team had planned on and dialed into about 219lbs for the contest. After his toilet time and at the weigh-in, he was 213 and a bit.

Holmes struggled and nearly caved in against the underrated (and frustrating and oft ill-focused) upstart in Tim Witherspoon. Credit to Witherspoon, whose talent and ability saw him win two world titles...and against Holmes, he almost won the REAL championship and all of the marbles. Round 9 underlined the moment for both; Witherspoon was on the cusp of altering his destiny...Holmes at the edge of a great chasm. Larry's championship heart bled out and a fight the likes we rarely see today at heavyweight ensued for a little over a minute; enough to stun and back-off the hungry challenger.

I like to see the flaws as well as the strengths of my great heavyweights. When I saw Larry struggle with Weaver my doubts surfaced up until the moment I saw him lure his foe into a trap. When I saw him get up off the deck to salvage victory against Shavers I didn't listen to the critics. I was certain. Holmes was indeed a great for the ages!

 

If you'll forgive my interjection, I do NOT believe Gerry was at his best for Holmes, excessively reliant on getting in his hook to the body, forgoing the improved right which initially stunned Norton, tore Young's face open, and later would flatten Philipp Brown, mothballing his jab, and timidly over-pacing himself.

For me, his career best performance was actually Dino Denis, where he optimized his height and reach in dwarfing a cutie who previously was a virtual match for Foreman in height and reach, and continually pumped out a steady stream of left jabs until hooking perfectly off of that jab a single time to suddenly hand John his first official career knockdown to end matters.

Tyrell Biggs is my favorite Tyson display, and Denis is my preference for C00ney, representing the jab oriented direction I believe he should have continued in if he was to become better while Victor Valle worked with him in improving his right, and reserving his hook for greater surprise value and unpredictability. He used his jab to set his hook up for Denis beautifully.

Does the end justify the means here however? Holmes set Gerry up for life financially, thanks to the hype, which might have been jeopardized by taking match extending risks with a jab based orientation. Once he lost to Holmes though, if he was to successfully return to serious contention, he needed to return to action quickly to capitalize on his title shot experience and reopen the Dino Denis playbook.

Balance that against how he supplemented his take from Larry with additional defeats to Michael Spinks and George Foreman. Once again, does the end justify the means?

 

I wouldn't believe Larry's excuse as to why he was greatly troubled by Witherspoon. Boxers are notorious for making excuses for bad performances. The truth is, Larry had started to decline by the time he faced the young, hungry and talented Witherspoon. His heart pulled him through to a close win. He got the message and hand picked his opposition from then on, dumping the WBC title in the process.

 

Terrific post. :good

 

Bill1234 trained in Larry's gym, and told us this is what Holmes said to him around seven years back.

The story leading up to Witherspoon is that he was training especially hard after shutting out Lucien Rodriguez eight and a half weeks earlier, wanting to take Tim out after the decisions over Cobb and the European Champion. He was known as somebody who previously had to be deterred from over-training.

He was 221 for Rodriguez, 213 for Spoon, and he would average around 223 through the remainder of his reign.

Comments he made after going 47-0-0 against Bey suggest he might have wanted to stop there if Marciano had lost the decision in LaStarza I or Lowry I, or if Holmes had already reached the 50-0-0 milestone without the year of inactivity between Marvis and Bonecrusher.

Scribes at the time dismissed Witherspoon as an anomaly, and his crushing of Marvis Frazier in one round seemed to confirm that. Larry says today that beating Marvis was like taking candy from a baby, but Joe's boy actually had a good record against big reputable heavyweights, and only Holmes and Tyson would ever defeat him in the punch for pay ranks.

In dumping the WBC Title with its gay, pussified 12 round limit, Larry accepted the IBF's restoration of the championship distance, something Holmes had the prestige and cachet to reject if he genuinely believed age and decline were compromising his endurance. In fact, Larry did sweep the championship rounds in his final successful defense over Carl Williams, keyed by the body attack of Holmes.

When did he actually have his most precipitous decline? Look to the year of inactivity between Marvis and Bonecrusher, from November 1983 until November 1984. He was a stylist who needed competitive activity to stay sharp, preferred a three to four bout a year pace, was forced back to just two outings in 1982 to preserve C00ney (between Snipes and Gerry, he tried to get in a stay busy defense against hard hitting Larry Frazier), then got mothballed for a year after Marvis, a year he could never have back.

213 was an inappropriately light weight for Holmes a year after Cooney, and I fully accept his claim of having been dehydrated with diarrhea to have come in that light in weight. (In July 1980, it made some news that his weight in training for LeDoux was 215, a few pounds high at that earlier stage of his career, and it was explained that he was hydrating by drinking a great deal of water. Some like Ali didn't perspire much during competition, but Larry tended to sweat very heavily. Juxtaposing 215 for LeDoux in July 1980 against 213 for Spoon THREE years later, after coming in at 221 for Rodriguez in Scranton, then following Tim by scaling 223 for Scott Frank in Atlantic City, yes I do believe that Holmes was indeed hindered against Witherspoon for the reasons he says he was.