Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Chitown, Jun 18, 2022.
Usyk beat Beterbiev and landed at will.
Being an explosive athlete and having fast feet in a boxing ring are not the same thing. I'm sure AJ would beat 2015 Fury in a 100M sprint but a young Fury had a massive footspeed advantage. AJ's very explosive but an almost 3 years older Usyk was much more fleet of foot and far more agile. Radchenko (who had sparred all of the top cruisers a few years ago) said that Usyk was the fastest of all of them; to be successful at the elite level you have to be extremely fast if you're not a big puncher and Usyk certainly wasn't a puncher. So a young Usyk probably moved around the ring faster than power puncher Haye, who moved around the ring faster than Jones according to a mutual opponent, who praised Jones heavily in the article. Obviously Usyk would be harder to tag than Jones anyway because he's longer, more skilled and a southpaw, so Beterbiev being able to stay on him and land plenty shows that he wouldn't have a problem getting close to Jones and landing hard shots.
Usyk's win is in a different stratosphere to the Carnera's and Valuev's because there's only one other win over an elite SHW (a type that didn't exist before the 90's and has dominated ever since) that is even comparable: Bowe-Holyfield 2. But that was controversial and in neutral territory, whereas Usyk's win was wide, with location and politics against him.
Simply put, if he was as fast as Roy you wouldn't need such a convoluted argument to prove it. Boxing just doesn't work that way. And yeah I can see you clearly seek to put Usyk on a pedestal. I'm not clear on your reasons but it's not that serious. What will you say if he ends up face planting in the rematch?
A more logical argument is required because because I can see one thing and you can see another. Many people apparently think Beterbiev is slow, I don't think they know what they're watching but I won't convince any of them by saying "he's not, use your eyes".
If Usyk gets KO'd in the rematch then he's 1-1 against elite SHW's rather than 1-3-1, with the draw and win being controversial. AJ would also rise in my estimation as it would take a lot of fortitude to come back from that loss and KO a great fighter who has never been KO'd before, or beaten at all in over a decade going back to the amateurs, despite religiously fighting on the road against top fighters.
That's the thing right there, perhaps you don't understand how speed works? Beterbiev is relatively slow when you put him next to fast boxers. He's not a sloth, but he's not very fast. You can be slow as **** and have great footwork and not be at any sort of disadvantage. Which is where I think your observations clash with those of others. Lots of guys who aren't particularly fast cover that deficiency with great footwork.
And please quit with the "SHWs were only created last week, so usyk is the bestest" because as I said Joe Louis fought several times being outweighed anywhere from 30 to 60 lbs in the 1930s and 40s.
Shortbus doesn't actually box. He doesn't understand that good footwork ≠ quick feet. And he'll push as far as mental gymnastics can go do discredit past boxers and overrated modern ones
Having great footwork isn't sufficient to keep up with fast cruiserweights (who also have good/great footwork) like Hunter and Usyk if you have relatively slow feet. He's not slow at all, it's just nonsense from haters. Same thing with Fury's punching power: "he's pillowfisted, he's a lighter puncher than Ali!" Complete nonsense from people who don't know what they're watching.
Louis fought the smaller, less durable, less athletic equivalents of Nikolai Valuev, it's not even remotely comparable. Pre-Bowe the HW division was dominated by 6'2/6'3, 210-220 lbs HW's and ever since it's been dominated by much bigger men who are also skilled and athletic. It's not Louis's fault but they didn't exist back then. It's a similar story with good southpaw HW's or heavyweights with great speed and one-punch power, they just didn't exist. So naturally Usyk's win is sui generis, with the only comparable win being Holyfield's controversial win over Bowe.
Personally think RJJ could beat him with his jab alone but he has a tendency to lean on the ropes with both hands up. Really bad way of soaking up pressure. Beterbiev would punch straight through that and it would probably still hurt.
I still lean to RJJ on points simply based on boxing ability as a whole
What fight are you talking about? Usyk himself said Beterbiev was his toughest opponent. You think he schooled him? How do you explain the scores at the worlds and Olympics (both 17-13) with Beterbiev giving him a count in both fights? How does that line up with what you’re claiming? Watch the worlds fight again, Usyk was rocked repeatedly.
He was getting caught time and again.
Beterbiev also beat Usyk though...
I'm going to lay out his argument, maybe if he reads it from someone else he'll pick up on how weird it is.
So, because Ruiz says Haye, in his(Ruiz's) last fight ever was faster than Roy Jones Jr., at his heaviest weight ever(not prime) we're led to assume that Usyk is faster than (prime!) Roy Jones jr., because at cruiserweight Haye was a big puncher and since Usyk isn't then he has to have more speed than Haye because, well....reasons. And since Beterbiev was able to keep up with Usyk (11 years!) ago, he should absolutely be able to keep up with (Prime!)Roy Jones Jr. Wow.
I tell you what, since you insist, the burden of proof is on you. Tell us or show us the fight where Usyk demonstrates this speed you're describing. Roy Jones is well know by any boxing fan not born yesterday, but perhaps we're somehow over looking Usyks blinding speed.
Once you break his arguments down its nothing but biased garbage. I know this from experience. Shortbus will pull any kind of argument out of his ass to try and make a nonesense point
I can deal with bias, but it at least needs to make some sense.