Better All-Around Fighter: Primo Carnera or Riddick Bowe?

If, by 'matched aggressively', you mean to say that Carnera was pushed to the verge by opponents, who weighed less that 200lbs, I'd agree.

 

These fighters were better than Bowe's compeition though.

 

A sub-200lb fighter is a sub-200lb fighter. It doesn't matter his pound-for-pound ability when, in the 'I'd bet my house on it' reality, Bowe would plough through the likes of Loughran, Levinsky and Lasky.

 

But Carnera also fought men above 200 lbs...

 

And lost to the more proficient of them - Sharkey, Gains, Poreda and, of course, Baer. I'd not be too shy at backing Bowe to plough through all of these guys, as well.

Carnera was a big and strong guy, who showed heart. However, his limitations were exposed when he faced capable men, who were a bit bigger than the Loughrans, Levinskys and Laskys of the world (and even these comparatively little men took Carnera to the edge).

 

He also beat Sharkey, Godfrey, Schaff and Uzcudun - all over 200 lbs. I'm not convinced that Bowe would just destroy Baer, Sharkey or Godfrey. He certainly wouldn't stop Uzcudun either.

Again - I'm not Carnera fan and he was limited indeed. He still beat some good fighters and not all of them were small. Sharkey would be Bowe's second best win for example.

 

Carnera would do well in any era. Any era.

 

The situational context surrounding each of his wins against Sharkey, Godfrey, Schaff and Uzcudun have been discussed ad nauseum. Schaff, in particular, is a terrible shout, given the circumstances.

I don't think you can say for certain that Bowe wouldn't stop Uzcudun, either. I'd call that outcome a value-for-money bet, if I ever saw one.

I hear you - but, other than Godfrey, none of his wins were against particularly big men, anyway. Uzcudun was essentially a 5' 10" sub-200lb'er, on average, who rarely fought big men himself. Sharkey scaled less than 200lbs for the majority of his career, although, like Uzcudun, could come in at 200+.

Gains, Poreda, Baer, were generally the real bigger men with ability of the times (and even these guys were not on a par with the '90s comp, size-wise).

As for Sharkey being Bowe's second best win - this is predicated on Sharkey doing as well in the '90s, as he managed to do for himself during the lull period of the late '20s / early '30s. Whilst, in some ways, he carried the skills and finesse, he didn't, in my opinion, have the raw savagery of a Baer or a Louis, required to survive with the better big men of the modern age.

Had a prime Sharkey been about in the 90s, it would have been surprising to see him making much of an impression at Heavyweight, to the extent that he did in his own time.

 

Bowe would be lucky to make it through those 3 undefeated.

 

I don't see anything controversial on film of Sharkey, Uzcudun and Godfrey fights. I agree that Schaff's condition was important to keep in, but Carnera beat who he had in front of him.

Uzcudun was stopped once in his last fight by Joe Louis and he fought a lot of bangers. It's as unlikely as it gets. Bowe was no Louis.

I agree on Sharkey, but Uzcudun fought clearly above 200 lbs.

Sharkey did extremely well against bigger and slower fighters. He beat Godfrey and Wills (both full 1990s sized opponents with ability and class) along with some lesser big contenders of his times.

If someone like Byrd did well at HW against giants, I don't see any reason to doubt Sharkey's success.

 

Fair enough, but I am not convinced by the Sharkey KO and, whilst Uzcudun is often brought up in Carnera debates, it's easy to forget that his most noteworthy win was over a pre-peak Max Baer, which in itself was a close run affair. Indeed Uzcudun's form begins tailing off in '29 and continues to do so, save the Baer win and a clutch of 'Ws' he collects on home soil in '33.

Bowe doesn't have to be a Louis to knockout Uzcudun. He just needs to be Bowe, playing to his innate strengths, which make him a 230lb, forward-moving, offensive monster, who knocked over much bigger men than Uzcudun.

And, how many opponents did Uzcudun face, who were as capable as Bowe and weighed in, at over 16-stones?

Going by that form comparison, it's a good bet that Bowe takes him out.

The point is, in any real sense of the words, Uzcudun was not a big heavyweight and not as capable as the top-tier of heavyweights, entering the '30s.

To say Sharkey did extremely well against bigger men is overstatement. Godfrey, by accounts, spoiled his way through the bout with Sharkey, barely trying to throw anything. Had he tried, it might have meant something.

Wills was a ring-rusty shell by the time Sharkey fought him. Who are these other big contenders of the time that Sharkey fought? The significant majority of Sharkey's opponents were sub-200lb'ers with a fair smattering of sub-190lb'ers to boot.

Byrd didn't come to anything until the '00s and he didn't do all that well against giants, either. Poleaxed by Ibeabuch; drubbings at the hands of Wlad and some charmed results (Vitali; Golota; McCline; Williamson), even getting a gift against Oquendo.

A one-off career, during another of the heavyweight division's downturns, is no basis to think Sharkey does well in the '90s.

 

I'd pick Tubbs to beat
Lasky.
Levinsky.
Impellettiere
Neusel
Loughran
Stribling
Uzcudun
Meen
etc.

 

The average size of the division grew measurably from the time of Carnera to the time of Bowe. Carnera would not have the immense size disparity he enjoyed fighting in the 20s and 30s which would be a disaster for him.
However I will concede he looks better on film than I originally believed, and judging by the footage of Godfrey I don’t see clear evidence that the fight was a fix which has long been alleged.
Carnera moves well for a man his size and His Jab is decent. Also the Baer fight I believe does more to diminish Baer than hurt Carnera in my mind. Carnera got tagged early and busted his ankle, yet it still took Baer 11 rounds to retire him. Horrible finish ability against a wounded fighter.
Had Carnera not rolled his ankle that bout is likely competitive.
Having said that on to Bowe, his size and fluidity for a big man as well as his experience of fighting other large skilled men would make short work of Carnera. Having said that I believe Bowe is overrated and did struggle with fighters that were not great by any stretch - he should of been Dq’d against Mathis and he went to downtown low blow heaven with Coetzer. Bowe’s best wins are against a blown up cruiser (a great fighter period) but Bowe himself missed out on more top fighters of his era more than Carnera did in his own time.

 

Only if he was blindfolded, with one hand tied behind his back.

 

Wow 110 pages.
Honestly pretty pathetic.
Bowe beats the dog #### out of Carnera and is levels above him in talent.
If people cant figure that it's pretty pathetic.
So many really good threads go by the wayside and this crap is still up for debate. SMH