Better All-Around Fighter: Primo Carnera or Riddick Bowe?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, Apr 23, 2017.


Who was the better all-around fighter, Primo Carnera or Riddick Bowe?

  1. Primo Carnera

  2. Riddick Bowe

  3. They were equally good all-around fighters

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  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Ethered.

    Job well done
     
    George Crowcroft, Aug 10, 2019
    George Crowcroft, Aug 10, 2019
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  2. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I actually hadn't seen the Impelletiere bout before, so, ty for that.

    Comparing those two bouts, I have to agree with you that Bowe looks technically better than Carnera, and there's no way around it.

    I guess I'm too used to seeing Bowe whooshing his overhands wildly and sloppily. He looks good there.

    That said, Carnera also looks more game than I've seen him elsewhere. I can see what he's trying to do - work off the jab and parry with the other hand - but its not really working. On the other hand he seems (once loosened up) pretty keen to mix it up and not as awkward and stiff as other bouts I remember.
     
    BCS8, Aug 10, 2019
    BCS8, Aug 10, 2019
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Here's the problem with your reasoning: You cannot criticize Bowe for giving up his height and reach advantage to fight on the inside if he had stellar success fighting on the inside! He was a very well rounded inside fighter.

    The flip side to this is that Bowe didn't suck on the outside either. He clearly wasnt the best at it but when he bothered to he had a good underrated jab, good combinations, and knew how to fight tall and bully fighters who tried to mix it up with him. He knew how to win rounds. You can't win a decision over a skilled boxer like Tony Tubbs if you have poor over all skill and lack mid range ability. I could see Tubbs outpointing a significant percentage of Carnera's opposition.
     
    Glass City Cobra, Aug 10, 2019
    Glass City Cobra, Aug 10, 2019
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  4. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Why would he be motivated when he has to dump the title? He was probably tortured the rest of his life about it.
     
    ETM, Aug 10, 2019
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  5. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    He got no Oscar for it. Jack Sharkey could really box. He was a good fighter. Nice skills. It was not a great nite for boxing. It was fixed.
     
    ETM, Aug 10, 2019
    ETM, Aug 10, 2019
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  6. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I understand why you are doing it and Bowe was clearly better than Carnera but this is not an argument. I can do similar clips with Bowe looking terrible but that wouldn't make him a terrible fighter.

    You always say that short clips proves nothing when we have been talking about skillset but on this occasion you use them as an argument. Carnera was far from the ATG but he was also far from terrible fighter. Bowe was clearly better than Carnera but he wasn't perfect either and he had moments in ring when he looked bad.
     
    70sFan865, Aug 10, 2019
    70sFan865, Aug 10, 2019
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  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    The clips themselves aren't the argument--they are examples illustrating what dozens of us have been arguing throughout this thread. I originally offered them because Janitor--either delusionally or disingenuously--claimed that the pro-Carnera fringe were the only ones providing evidence, an absurd claim he repeated today. And the difference between my clips and the hypothetical Bowe clips is that these aren't flukes or gaffes or anomalously poor moments. This is who Primo Carnera was and how he fought. His basic fundamentals are deeply flawed. That is the bottom line. Anyone who thinks he was technically superior to or a better all-around fighter than Riddick Bowe doesn't know what he's talking about. Anyone who thinks such a ridiculous thing hasn’t really watched Carnera fight, hasn’t really watched Bowe fight, and/or fundamentally just doesn't understand boxing. There's no way around that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 10, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 10, 2019
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  8. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    But you are right that very short clips can be completely misleading--especially when people try to cherrypick them as proof of a boxer's supposed skills.
     
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 10, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 10, 2019
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  9. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Impelletiere looks technically better than Primo imo he was out boxing him until he ran out of gas, and he was only a novice!
     
    Tonto62, Aug 11, 2019
    Tonto62, Aug 11, 2019
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  10. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You speak the truth!
     
    Tonto62, Aug 11, 2019
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  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Let me show you one of the best rounds in boxing history. I am sure that you have seen it before.

    This content is protected


    Impressive?

    Yes

    Fun to watch?

    Yes

    A technically correct manner for a super heavyweight to fight?

    About as far from it as you can get!

    Here is the problem with your argument.

    You take a negative stance, attacking Carnera's mistakes, in some cases minor ones, but you ignore the fundamental elephant in the room with Bowes style!

    He sometimes fought significantly smaller men, and gained no sort of advantage from his reach!

    Even when he was taking a beating he often failed to hide behind his jab!!!!

    It is not hard to see why he had such a short prime, and started taking one sided beatings when he slowed down.

    Tell me honestly, if you were training somebody like David Price, would you want him to fight like Carnera or like Bowe?

    If the truth is that you would try to make him more like Carnera, then you must conclude that Carnera was more technically sound for a big man.
     
    janitor, Aug 11, 2019
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  12. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I don't see how most of what you've written relates to the question of who was the better all-around fighter or who was more technically sound. In addition to our other disagreements about Carnera and Bowe, you and I must have very different understandings of the meaning of "technically sound." Technically sound, as I've always understood the term, refers first and foremost to a fight consistently punching and moving with proper mechanics, and using sound defensive technique. Technically sound boxers don't push their punches--they snap them. Technically sound boxers almost always keep their balance, even when they are throwing hard punches and punching on the move. Technically sound boxers have strong defensive fundamentals. In all of these and many other ways, Carnera is obviously highly flawed technically.

    Bowe was a much better outside fighter than Carnera when he chose to be. He was a much better jabber and a far more lethal puncher from long range. IMO, it would have been strategically smart for him to emphasize that part of his game more. But the fact that he chose to engage on the inside more than necessary isn't a technical flaw or any kind of indication that he wasn't a better all-around fighter than Primo.

    And let's be clear here--Carnera demonstrated that he had the right idea about keeping distance at times, but he lacked the ability to pull it off. In the limited footage available on Carnera, there are plenty of instances of him being outjabbed by smaller men, caught flush with long-range power punches by smaller men, and being caught off-guard and helpless when smaller men rushed him and closed distance. His punches from long range were generally slow enough to avoid and thrown with poor enough technique as to not be especially dangerous. The idea that he was an excellent outside fighter or better from the outside than Bowe is ludicrous.
     
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 11, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 11, 2019
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  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    We clearly do have a very different understanding of what makes a technically sound fighter.

    You seem to be far more preoccupied with minor technical details, than fundamental conceptual flaws!
    In which fight does he demonstrate this.
    There is nothing wrong with unorthodox styles, if they can be made to work, but they have to be described as such.

    Bowe was the better natural talent of the two, and had the best win of the two, but Carnera was the more technically correct superheavy of the two.
    It is true that he was unable to prevail against the best fighters of his era, but that probably wasn't primarily due to his technical shortcomings.

    What he was doing worked against most of the contenders of his era, so you have to ask why he got as far as he did, and why he didn't get any further?

    He got as far as he did because he was big and technically sound, and he probably didn't get any further because he didn't have the power or durability to fully capitalize upon it.
     
    janitor, Aug 11, 2019
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  14. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Minor technical details! :lol:

    But yes, the conceptual and strategic issues you've been discussing have no bearing on whether someone is "fundamentally sound" imo.

    Many fights. If I were to pull together highlights of Bowe jabbing or throwing hard rights from outside, it would look far more impressive than Primo's best work from outside. It's immediately apparent. You can look at some of the jabs he throws at Holyfield and Cooper, for starters. They're faster, delivered with better balance, and he can double and even triple them up with leverage, while maintaining his balance and form.

    Ok... Not sure how this is a knock against Bowe.

    The first two claims are completely right; the last is completely false.

    He was also unable to prevail against plenty of fighters who weren't the best of his era.

    His technical shortcomings absolutely had a lot to do with his ceiling as a fighter. They limited his power and his ability to protect himself from his opponents' attacks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 11, 2019
    mrkoolkevin, Aug 11, 2019
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  15. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    God almighty.give it up FFS!
     
    Tonto62, Aug 11, 2019
    Tonto62, Aug 11, 2019
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