Better Career: Marciano or Ali pre-Exile?

OK, if you really believe that he was a DESERVING contender, let alone one of the best heavyweights of that era, surely you can name 3 good wins of his? I'll even settle for one.

If Liston was between 40 and 45 for Wepner then he was between 34 and 39 for Ali by your own admission. Does that sound like a fighter who is in his absolute prime?

1. It's hilarious, you call Cooney a bum, yet refer to Wepner as "one of the best heavyweights of his era" further demonstrating your lack of knowledge. Cooney was worlds better than Wepner and would have easily demolished him.

2. Most agree, Cooney was a bad style match up for Norton and would've beaten him regardless of his age.

Against whom though? He faced two rated fighters, one of whom was 1-4 in his last 5 fights, and coming off a one-sided decision loss where one judge gave him one round, and another gave him none.

1. Patterson was 28 at the time not 25.

2. Again, it's more than obvious Patterson was petrified in their fights (particularly the 2nd) by his own admission. Liston also held a huge stylistic advantage over Patterson and didn't need to be at his best to do so.

Louis was coming off a win to Bivins, the one time interim champion and top contender. Walcott was coming off 2 wins against the heavyweight champion despite his advanced age. Charles had just turned in quite possibly his best performance in his prior fight, recording a bone-chilling KO of Satterfield.

AFTER facing Marciano 2X, it's well known many fighters who faced Marciano once, let alone twice were ruined afterwards as Marciano's high intensity style, and unmatched pace meant a prolonged relentless beating as opposed to a Foreman who'd get you out of there quickly. Charles had a very impressive record going into the Marciano bout, and was coming off perhaps a career best performance as I stated.

1. Wikipedia? That's your ace? I don't go on Wikipedia, as information is usually added by morons such as yourself. I actually just went on Wikipedia right now, and couldn't find anything saying Louis was only fighting club level opponents so that is not true at all.

Now you're just flat out lying at this post. Louis was 37, and Walcott was 38.

Holy was 46 at the time of his bout with Valuev, nearly a decade older than Louis was for Marciano, and hadn't had a fight in over a year which itself was a one-sided loss. Oh yeah he was also nearly 2 decades past his prime.

Louis was also the no. 1 Contender, while Holy was not even in the top ten. Please stop with these non-sensical comparison.

 

Louis also proclaimed him a great HW during the Terrell fight. During his fight with Patterson the commentators compared him to Jack Johnson.

A feel the context of just how good Ali looked against Liston, Patterson and Terrell (definitely the three best of that period besides Ali) too often gets lost on this board digging into everything that plausibly can undermine their worth (well, not the Terrell win that much but every now and then someone comes along that wants to write that one off as well).

 

I don't think Ali was universally recognized as an ATG until the Foreman fight. Obviously their was a few whispers dating back to '64 though.

 

There were the losses to Frazier and Norton that he needed the Foreman win to redeem, but I don't know how he was rated during his exile. Often it takes a few years for a fighter to be to truly appreciated as well (just look how Lewis's stock has risen).

But men like Walcott and Louis, who definitely knew what they were looking at, showed him great appreciation already in the 60's. Walcott was especially effusive in his praise.

 

Terrell was a great win.

The problem with Liston and Patterson is that the damaging facts are accepted by both sides of the debate. It's not like Wilder claiming that his ring attire was too heavy. Patterson really does seem to have suffered a back injury. Liston's shoulder really did have medically verified issues in the first fight. And Liston's performance in the second fight really did look weird even to Ali's fans. (A fact that Ali himself apparently noticed, if the accounts of his demanding Sonny get up are accurate.)

The first Liston fight is by far the best of the three, IMO. And for better or worse, boxing fans have a tendency not to award the same credit for a win over an opponent whose shoulder got injured. For example, Byrd got notoriously little credit for wearing Vitali's shoulder down until the latter quit; it wasn't considered a decisive demonstration of Byrd's superiority in the same way that a knockout would have been.

 

That was because Vitaly was winning until he quit. Liston looked to be KO'd as predicted. So I think Loma-Rigo is a better comparison.

As for Floyd, we have for example Tucker and Thomas who also cited injuries without quitting, so they are better reference points in that regard.

 

The only reason Ali was not widely recognized as GOAT right after lets say the Patterson fight was he was a black muslin and played the arrogant loud mouth. 2 big no nos in those days. Then eventually on top of that he refused to go in the draft. The old broadway boxing writers particularly disparaged him. Any question mark they assumed the worst. Glass jaw etc..
Finally after Vietnam was over and he mellowed toward the writers who saw the loud mouth thing was mostly an act to sell tickets and wins over Frazier and Foreman then they loved him and almost unanimously considered him the GOAT.