Better Chin: Dempsey or Marciano ?

I would guess that Marciano's whiskers were slightly better, but not by much. I am in no way certain of that, though.

 

I would argue that people might be overrating Firpo as a puncher. For a man with supposedly explosive power, he certainly went a lot of rounds with almost all his top opponents. He took him 12 to get a fading Bill Brennan. Homer Smith managed ten rounds despite a slew of knockdowns. Erminio Spalla lasted to the 14th in the first fight and the 12 round distance in the second. Wills and Weinert beat him over the full 12 in 1924. On the other side was the 2nd round stoppage of Weinert, Firpo's only real display of early stopping power against even a journeyman level opponent, and the 8th round stoppage of the 41 year old Willard. Impressive? Somewhat, but I would question rating him above say Walcott, Charles, or Moore for sheer punching power. I don't think he showed enough for that. Weinert was stopped 8 times, all before the 4th round. Blowing him out early was not that difficult.

 

I think the key difference here is the number of punchers both fought, and the ability those opponents had to bring that punch home. For Dempsey, the four hardest hitters are probably Willard, Firpo and Fulton/Morris. The Morris fights are not on film, but his record does not indicate that he was anything special skill-wise, considering he had a significant size advantage over all his opponents. Willard and Fulton never got to connect with a good punch because they were blown out. That leaves only Firpo who landed on Dempsey, and he had Jack down three times.

As for Marciano, his four best punchers faced are probably Moore, Walcott, Layne and Louis. Moore, Walcott and Louis were highly skilled and managed to land their best shots. Marciano was down twice, hurt by Walcott and a flash knockdown against Moore, but never in serious trouble like Dempsey was against Firpo. Then that leaves Layne, who is somewhat like Firpo except more skilled, and he never made much of an impact on Marciano.

 

Louis had scored an impressive ko of top contender Lee Savold only a few months before fighting Marciano. When was the last time Gunboat Smith scored an impressive ko over a top man before he fought Dempsey? Or Willard?

Your comment on Louis is well taken. Remember, however, that if the Joe Louis that Marciano survived was a prime Joe Louis this would not even be an issue. Marciano would then be far, far ahead of Dempsey as far as having a proven chin. Yes Louis was past his best. It does not follow he could not punch at all. The Savold fight proves that to not be true.

 

6'2 214lb Joe Louis. Power is the last thing to go. He may have lost his finishing combination ability, but for pure ONE PUNCH power louis still had alot of force behind his one punches(especially heavy left hook) and it showed if you watch his filmed fights vs Valentino and Savold. Charles and Marciano's faces were both busted up horrible by louis. a 6'2 215lb can do alot of damage on a 185lb man if he hits flush...Marciano took some hellacious left hook shots of louis in round 1.

Also Rex Layne..a very hard right hand hitter. Layne was 34-1 with 25 kayos...he was basically a more skilled version of Firpo. Laynes right hand did not make marciano blink all night. ESB's John Garfield described Rex Layne as having a "very heavy right hand"

Also archie Moore...rated # 4 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list. is 22-1 with 19 kayos over men above 200lb

Also Jersey Joe Walcott rated # 66 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list. Holds perhaps the single most impressive one punch kayo of all time..hit marciano with a carbon copy punch in the next fight. Marciano took it and got right back up.

To compare a 1951 Joe Louis to the version of ali that fought holmes is ridiculous. Louis proved in 1950 he was still a highly dangerous # 1 rated heavyweight contender capable of beating any of the top 10 heavyweights in the world. Ali in 1980 proved he was not capable of beating a top 20 heavyweight in the world and he certainly was not a top 10 contender worthy.

 

1. Whos to say Firpo hit harder than Louis, Walcott, Moore, Layne?

2. How did dempsey prove he could take a clean shot by firpo? by getting knocked down THREE times, once out of the ring, and needed to be saved by a typewriter? thats not the mark of a chin to me. Everytime firpo hit dempsey, dempsey went down..and he was beneficial the typewriter helped push him back in the ring.



I think jack had certain clear advantages over rocky, but when it comes to chin I think rocky clearly takes it

 

Here are the 4 biggest punchers Marciano fought displaying there one punch power...POWER IS THE LAST THING TO LEAVE A FIGHTER!


Joe Louis 6'2 214lb # 1 on Ring Magazine all time punchers list
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR9zg7B-4p8
watch 10:30-10:45


Archie Moore- # 4 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMPXHqGiB28
Watch 7:35-7:45 Moore outweighed by 35lb!!!



Jersey Joe Walcott- Rated # 63 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFX0F0qUM-Q
Watch 9:47-10:00 Who the hell is capable of taking this kind of shot? O wait....Marciano!



Rex Layne- 22 years old 34-1 with 25 knockouts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlBPErrn0
Watch 1:25-1:40 Laynes powerful right hand at its best

 

I agree that Walcott and Moore were still good punchers, Layne and Charles too could knock out heavyweights.

Louis however, while still a capable puncher, had seemingly lost most of his power, even according to Marciano. The left jab still "hit like a hammer" according to him but the right hand was almost useless.

"What surprised me," Marciano noted after the fight, "was that Joe didn't have much of a right. They told me he had lost some of his power, but I didn't expect nothing. That's what his right hand was-nothing."

Firpo was evidently strong and powerful but he was as unskilled as they come. Dempsey didn't take his punches too well I thought.

Willard could punch but he was getting older and was never given a chance to land anything of substance.

 

Marciano by a decent margin imo, Dempsey's comp wasnt nearly as good as Marcianos was out on his feet against Firpo, hurt by Tunney and knocked out in 1 by Flynn. Walcott/Louis/Charles/Louis were all very accurate and devastating punchers who landed plenty of shots. Layne was also a puncher

 

There is being 'shaken' and then there is being 'moved'. Dempsey was easier to 'move' due to his lankier build which was less compact and he was on his toes more.

Then there is the resilience factor. As close as Dempsey appeared to be on his way out against Firpo Ted Spoon would bet that he was in fact closer to being sober. Some fighters are built to rile back when buzzed, incredibly difficult to bury.

Marciano was a sturdier built fellow, foundation wise, not material, and this is where the definition of 'chin' is hazy; as explained there is 'moved' and then there is 'buzzed'. There is knocked to the floor and rocked to the core.

 

I really dont see how anyone can hold against Marciano on this point. He was never really even hurt. The only knockdowns he suffered were just flash knockdowns that mean virtually nothing. I think Marciano has a far better chin. But even if he doesnt, surely the correct answer would have to be that we dont know, because it was never broken! Most assumed the young Cassius Clay had a weak chin (Joe louis included and this would have been his undoing in a fantasy fight) but i think it is fair to say that most were wrong. If the chin was never broken and he did fight plenty of World class fighters, i think it is ridiculous to say with any certainty that someone could have a better chin.

 

I would go with Marciano without a doubt. Rocky never really was hurt, and Dempsey staggered around and was hurt more so than Marciano. i would go with Marciano, but Dempsey had a great chin himself.