Better head movement; Tyson or Frazier?

I’ll have another look at the Tillis fight and round 4 specifically buddy for an accurate review.

 

Good question. Peak it's hard not to go w Tyson n minus Ali I see Tyson slipping punches from Fraziers comp w ease. Only iffy w Foreman imho it would depend on how much roughhousing the ref would allow but there's still that heavy ass jab tbf younger Foreman didn't use it enough for me.



None of Tysons comp gives me the impression that he would b slipping Alis jab like Frazier was in FOTC tho that was imho the best Frazer looked on film against a high level opponent. 86-88 Tyson is more elusive to me tho I'm not confident in him looking as good against a younger Holmes, Ali or Liston. Eh, on film Tyson at his peak looks cuter I'll vote that way.

 

Tyson’s crazy head movement against his old foe Mitch Green was hilarious. I think Mike was taunting him to lay a glove on him if he could, as Green constantly hit thin air. Mitch looked proper pixxed off haha.

 

Tyson early on, easily.

 

I think if you watch film of Frazier a bit closer and don't listen to the announcer as gospel you will see he turns rolls and deflects alot more shots than you might think. He takes most of the leather off of so many shots

 

I think I’ll stay sturdy on my opinion for now but I’ll take another gander.

 

You can't really compare a whole fight to one particular moment in a fight. Over the 10 rds Tillis landed plenty on Tyson, despite being a lesser fighter than Douglas. On last viewing, I had Tillis winning that fight.

In most of Tyson's fights before '99 you can find moments of great head movement, but in between he had long period without much head movement, This was the case in the mythical 87-88 period as well. Against Thomas, Tycker, Biggs and even against Tubbs the short time it lasted there were periods were Tyson didn't move his head much and got tagged. The Tyson that moved his head constantly for 12 rds has never existed. Not even for 4 rds, I'd say.

Frazier, on the other hand, did move his head for a full 15 even.

 

Frazier got knocked down 6 times in 2 rounds

its obvious who has the better head movement...

 

If you think Mike Tyson’s head movement was predictable…take a look at the 5th round of the first Holyfield fight

 

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One thing I will credit Frazier for over Mike is he made guys rush there work. Tyson made them pay and forced the issue at his distance but a lot of guys only threw at Frazier out of panic because he closed in so quickly and it was do or die.

 

Excellent observation. Tyson's head movement was excellent but he didn't maintain it three minutes a round for 15 rounds like Frazier did.

 

But what if he stayed down from the first knockdown?

How would we ever be able to judge them then?

 

Finally had a look.

Not to be immovable - I know there were periods in other fights in which Mike could show off impressive head movement - I just think the consistency of his dedicated D might be exaggerated.

Interesting to look at rd 4 again. Tbh, Mike wasn’t moving his head a whole lot - more on a seek and destroy mission - and Tillis was catching him solid but Mike was enjoying some offensive success also (effectively contributing to his D) where as Douglas was dishing it mostly one way from the get go.

Mike put on that brief display of dipping incredibly low and weaving to make Tillis miss - shoeshine D? LOL, kidding. Very impressive but again, all too brief.

But to be serious, there was only that small snapshot and later, toward the end of the round when Mike evaded Tillis’ left and then countered with his own left hook to drop Quick. Mike was very good in those defensive offensive counter instances.

I loved his duck another the jab and spring up left hook counter on Carl Williams - a peach punch and peach move altogether.

 

One of the dumbest arguments I’ve seen pertaining to Frazier’s defense and chin.

People throw up Frazier’s Amount of knock downs against him but using that logic if Frazier was knocked out cold the first time he was floored his durability would be viewed as far better… which makes no sense at all.

 

OK, but then why did a basically Prime Tyson have such a close fight with Tillis?
Who lost 4 of his last fights, & the 3 right before facing Tyson?
He seemed to get better later in the fight, even while violating all common knowlege or beliefs on how to fight Tyson.
Without a knockdown the fight would have ended a draw. From Wikipedia:

After extensive medical examination, Tillis' strange recurrent fatigue midway through fights was found to derive from a severe allergy to the classic fighter's diet of milk and eggs. A doctor provided Tillis with a more suitable diet, in the training for his upcoming fight with [url]Mike Tyson[/url], a red-hot prospect with a 19–0 (19 knockouts) record. Tillis appeared to be a new man, as he exchanged with Tyson and gave the future two-time champion a very tough fight. Although ultimately outpointed, he was the first person ever to take Iron Mike to [url]the distance[/url]. Surprisingly, Tillis' heart and will to fight has been questioned quite frequently by boxing analysts, even his co-manager Beau Williford told to the press the night before the fight considering that James was on a three-times-in-a-row losing streak, that his professional career as a boxer would be ended most likely if stopped by Tyson. Trainer [url]Angelo Dundee[/url], who worked with Tillis for the Weaver fight and some subsequent fights, finally gave up his job, he said: "James had no spirit to fight." In the pre-fight interview he told the ESPN staff that he found that spirit. To prove Dundee was wrong, Tillis violated almost all the Dundee "No-Nos" in the Tyson fight:[url][1][/url]

• Fought out of the squared-up stance, instead of the closed sideway stance.
• Sometimes fought with both hands down.
• Switched to southpaw and back to orthodox.
• Lead with his right hand.
• "Left-hooked with a hooker."
• Got tangled in wild exchanges.