Better Legacy: Hopkins or RJJ

He beat Roy?? By fouling and fouling trying to get Roy to retaliate.. then going down when Roy hits him back and carrying on needing 5 minutes?? What if those were KDs, would Hop have made a 10 count?!

He certainly beat Roy at acting injured on the canvas rolling around!!

 

Agree with most of that, but am on the fence a bit still about who I favour

 

I say it's an embarrassment because in doing this comparison you will be forced to consider Roys total career like you would in any fighter comparison. And I consider the last 13 years of his career or so in which he has been T/KO'ed 5 times an embarrassment. And its esp highlighted here when you consider bhop has never been so humiliated in the ring. He's never been knocked out. And bhop has fought true killers in Tito, Kovalev and Pavlik, winning two of them, taking their Zeros, and surviving one with his dignity intact only recently. People thought Tito was going to kill him. And then when you contrast this with his earlier career... Roy didn't slowly deteriorate. He went pretty much all at once. Which I also think is quite curious... how does a fighter go from great to "shot" practically overnight? He beat a weak hw and then no longer has a beard? It doesn't make sense. To me it suggests he was winning not on solid skills, but something more fleeting, something more vulnerable. I value that less. I also think hopkins can be kind of an ass, but in my view he has the better overall legacy and it's not really that close.

 

You’re bragging about the Kovalev fight? Hopkins lost that fight 120-106, 120-107, 120-107. A literal shutout. A fight that Hopkins got knocked down in Round 1 and never recovered. Hopkins lost every single round vs Kovalev and it wasn’t even close. Hopkins looked terrible and hasn’t fought since, meanwhile Roy fought 4 times in 2015. Yes Kovalev is a great fighter but B Hops did nothing in that fight so it’s not anything to brag about being shutout and embarrassed! B Hops Kovalev was more one sided than RJJ vs Calzaghe. A least Roy put up a fight!

Tito was a huge win for Hopkins, but guess what? Roy Jones has a W over Tito, too! Based on the view that Hopkins win over Tarver was one of his biggest wins even though Tarver was out of shape and lethargic, then you must rate Roy’s win over Tito on par with B Hop’s win over Tito. Ya gotta be consistent when comparing legacies.

As has been explained on countless threads here at ESB, Roy had just done something that no man since Bob Fitzsimmons had done which was capture the Heavyweight Title then go back down to Light Heavyweight and recapture the Light Heavyweight Title. Don’t you think going from Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight then back down to Light Heavyweight would take a toll on your body?? It wasn’t that he no longer had a jaw after going to Heavyweight, it was just that the weight changes resulted in his speed and reflexes.

Roy did something that Hopkins could only dream of doing. In fact after Roy B Hop 2, B Hop was asked what’s next and he said he wanted to take on David Haye and win the Heavyweight Championship of the World. Can’t you see? B Hop is living in Roy’s shadow and is only dreaming of being able to do what Roy has already done.

Well once again the reason for his decline didn’t have anything to do with his skills. For 15 years in boxing he was for all intents and purposes undefeated and unbeatable. So that alone proves he had solid skills, and not something fleeting. All those rare boxing accomplishments that Roy did in the sport took a toll on his body and it slowed him down enough to make him vulnerable. And once again if what Roy accomplished was so easy, then Hopkins would have made good on his promise to fight David Haye and Win the Heavyweight Title. B Hop never fought David Haye or any other HW for a HW title because he couldn’t do what Roy could do. Don’t you see this man is living in the shadow of Roy Jones and it’s not even close!

Something fleeting would be.. hrmm like maybe losing your debut fight. Or losing to what would become your rival early in your career..

 

First of all, Kovalev has been knocking people out left and right. He's sort of a monster in his own right. I thought for sure he was going to KO hopkins. I was very impressed with Hopkins, at his age, that he was able to go the distance with Kovalev. Most guys don't do that. They usually do what Roy does and get KTFO. I say this as a Kovalev fan and I am happy kov got the win and i think it is a good win for him as he dominated hopkins using his boxing. But hopkins made it out alive.

RJJ beat a defeated Tito and not even as well as Hopkins by far.

Also, yes Roy beat Tarver but then Tarver turned around and knocked out Roy and beat him again. That is the Tarver that Hopkins dominated in a way Roy didn't. He beat the guy that essentially ended Roy. I think it is a huge statement.

Actually Roy was disqualfied and given a loss in the Grifin fight and I thought Grifin kicked his ass for most of that fight. He was a nervous wreck that fight and i think it contributed to his blatant foul.

Sorry, but Roy was a knocked out mess after Tarver.

 

Yeah I saw his last fight.

 

I think not playing the part of a rag doll getting ktfo multiple times when you should have retired on your laurels plays a part in Bhop getting the nod.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBW-CkMZVdc

Somebody call an ambulance.

 

Are you for real??

Who gives a sh*t about what happened in their 2010 rematch?

Naz Richardson tried to talk Bernard out of it.

You should be focusing on why Bernard ducked him 2002 when it MATTERED.

 

teemy,

I have zero respect for you, because you have refused point blank to answer any of my points.

Do you want an actual debate or not?

I think most people are overlooking all the valid points that I've made.

I'd expect Bernard to be in the lead, because he's just put up a valiant effort against Kovalev at 50, whilst Roy's been taken out by Enzo.

I'm certain those images are reflected in the poll.

What a complete cop out.

What you mean is, you don't want to do any serious digging like what I've done, because it may reflect badly on Bernard.

No they aren't.

A truly great win.

But we know that Tito was a legend at WW and JMW.

Once again, you're only viewing it as a black and white statistic.

This is where you're blinded.

THAT IS NOT THE GREAT ACHIEVEMENT THAT YOU THINK IT IS.

Bernard is 6'1, with a 75" reach.

He only committed to fighting permanently in the MW division, after THREE years of being a pro.

At that time, the MW division was weak. Because all of the great fighters had either retired or moved up.

Again, Bernard had to make incredible sacrifices both mentally and physically to remain there.

Until Don King put together his MW tournament, Bernard was to content to just defend his IBF belt against whoever was put in front of him.

It was over 6 years before he fought Tito.

He didn't show any ambition back then.

He was bigger than almost all of his opponents.

If Roy hadn't have left the division, he could never have had his long reign.


Open your eyes.

Correct.

Correct. He was finished as a top level fighter a very long time ago.

He's fought on for way too long.

No, it's not the end of the story, stop being ignorant.

You are accusing people of ignoring the latter stages of Roy's career, whilst that's the only part that you're an*lysing.

Bernard does not own Roy.

Bernard did not show Roy's ambition until 2005.

He turned down $6m (sorry if that upsets you) to fight Roy when it mattered in 2002, to instead do NOTHING!

He hasn't achieved as much as what Roy has.

His very best wins were against guys who'd peaked at lower weights.


Everything above is factual.

Now come back and debate them.

The only thing that Bernard has over Roy, is his outstanding longevity.

Once again, although that is truly great, it's only ONE factor out of many more to consider.

 

:good

 

teemy,

Your last comment?

Why don't you have an objective debate?

You didn't like him because you thought he should have been fighting better fighters?

Yet at the same time, you've celebrated Bernard's MW reign.

How does that make any sense?

Or does Bernard get a pass because eventually after more than SIX years, he ended up beating Tito?

You've already covered this.

So do I.

Now come back and let's have an in-depth debate.


:good

 

:deal

These are the points that are being overlooked.

 

No offense but I don't really care if you respect me or not Loudon. I'm not here to play the "I respect you but you are wrong or an idiot game" that you seem to be enjoying. I'm sure you can find others to play with you. Frankly, I think you are little delusional with some of your assertions of fact over why some decisions were made or why things happened. You state these things which are in no way facts and then build on them. Your debate is weak and you ignore that Bhop has better wins and beat the guy that demolished Roy. You ignore that bhop is still beating good guys while Roy is still getting knocked out. I think Bhop could have beat Roy at any time. And to say their second fight doesn't count? Why? Because you say so? Of course it counts. Granted, bhop didn't knock him out which has become the in vogue thing, but he beat him.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you specifically... you've been doing this for years by the looks of it. Have you noticed that most people don't buy it? Look at the poll.

I'll leave what I posted a little earlier here ... it's some climatic scenes from Roy's most recent fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBW-CkMZVdc