Better Legacy: Hopkins or RJJ

Loudon · Jan 27, 2016

Serge said: ↑

I know. It's almost 6:00am. I've been doing this for day, staying up till gone 8:00am.

I was going to decimate that Roy thread. Carpet bomb it with fact bombs from top to bottom.
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I'm in a routine similar to that.

It's going to be a shock when I return to work.

Would it have looked like Ray Mercer against Tommy Morrison?

Loudon · Jan 27, 2016

Serge said: ↑

I have no interest in getting into any of this with anyone (including the Jones vs B-Hop debate). A lot of the time these days I just like to put info out there and let others debate it. But B-Hop wanted nothing to do with Calzaghe either back then (not implying he was scared), despite Calzaghe calling him out frequently (direct call outs), agreeing to go to the US for the fight on the spot no questions asked and getting his promoter to badger him about the fight and make numerous offers, yes numerous as in more than one.

I remember seeing an interview with Frank a place where rabbits live where he was clearly very angry and frustrated with the B-Hop. He said it got to the point where B-Hop's phone went dead everytime he called. I remember reading other stuff regarding their attempts to make that fight in Boxing News and Boxing Monthly magazines during all of that period too. Anyone who thinks Calzaghe didn't want that fight, the one he called his '''career defining fight'' for years, and is to blame for it not happening back then is clueless atsch

1:49

[YT]JQkm1RxOug0[/YT]
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"Frank a place where rabbits live.."

:rofl

Loudon · Jan 27, 2016

Mind Reader said: ↑

You whiners...

It is 10pm here in Oregon and I am going strong.:rofl
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I hope you've cut down on your drinking.

You got Joe.Zero aroused last month.

Loudon · Jan 27, 2016

Serge said: ↑

Fair enough. Why did you quit the porn industry though? I thought you said you really enjoyed working in it in that PM you sent me?
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Ha!

:rofl :rofl

That literally made laugh out loud.

Joe.Boxer was getting too turned on. And we didn't want to see another Yusaf Mack type incident.

shanahan14 · Jan 27, 2016

Serge said: ↑

2:07 mark

"At the end of the day, if I can get a guy to a weight class where I know he's not used to or hasn't been in - why wouldn't I take that advantage or take that chance.''

--Bernard Hopkins
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Not sure if that was meant to show Hopkins was cowardly or whatever word you see fit, but to me that doesn't matter.

It's like asking if you want an advantage with anything in life. If you can get one without cheating, why the hell would you not do it?

bailey · Jan 27, 2016

Loudon said: ↑

Good an*lysis.

Whilst I don't want/expect you to agree with my opinions, I know that you'll an*lyse the factors that I've mentioned, that everyone else seems to be overlooking.

:good
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On this one, I do agree with alot of what you have written and as always will ****yse what is being debated

bailey · Jan 27, 2016

Thats a long post Loudon

Loudon said: ↑

We're both in agreement that Bernard only committed to being a MW after three years as a pro.

He had to make incredible sacrifices to fight at MW.

That MW division in 93, was weak due to all of the former greats either having retired, or having moved up to higher weights.

At 6'1, with a 75" reach, Bernard was bigger than almost all of his opponents.

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Cant see anything I disagree with there

You make a great point regarding Broner, and many people are saying that Roy was also just a title holder at 4 weights. But I'll give you my opinion on why that's unfair. It's unfair, because Roy showed ambition that Bernard didn't.

After Roy had beaten Bernard, he wanted a big money fight. So he went up to SMW to fight Toney, whilst Bernard stayed at MW to fight for Roy's vacated belt.

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This part here can be debateable. Whilst I dont necessarily disagree with you, I dont 100% agree as at that time they were at different stages in their careers due to their fight. Roy had won a world title at MW and had other options that were probably not available to Hopkins, so Hopkins going after a title in the weight division he was in was not a lack of ambition IMO and was a fighter looking to continue on a journey to win a world title

After Roy had beaten Toney, he didn't have the opportunity to unify the division, as he couldn't get fights with Benn or Liles.
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This has also been debated

So after only being in the division for about 2 years, he moved up to LHW. And at that point, Bernard was still content to defend his IBF belt against whoever was put in front him.

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What do you feel were Hopkins options at that time?
Roy had an American opponent that was of interest in a division he moved into

After Roy had unified the LHW division, and he couldn't reach a compromise with Dariusz,
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Lets not get into that here

he challenged Bernard to a fight at a CW. At that point, Bernard had finally become the undisputed MW champ after over 7 years in the division, after winning King's MW tournament the previous year. Yet he wouldn't fight Roy.
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I recall that there was a dispute over the money split and I did always feel that Jones should at that time have got the greater split. I dont think Hopkins was interested and think the split was a way of it not happening

He turned down huge money and then had over a year out of the ring. Which is why Roy went up and fought Ruiz. Then after he couldn't get another big money HW fight, he dropped back to fight Tarver at LHW. Where was Bernard at that point? He was still at MW.

So yes, you could say that Roy only won titles, whilst Bernard was officially 'The Man' at MW. But even so, how could that have been a bigger accomplishment than what Roy achieved? Roy wasn't bigger than almost all of his competition like Bernard was. He'd come up from JMW.

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Im not arguing this part

In my opinion, Bernard's MW reign is overrated. Yes, it culminated in a huge fight against Tito. But before King's tournament, again, he was just happily sailing along, fighting whoever was put in front of him. He showed no ambition at that point, even though the MW division was weak, and there were great fighters at SMW and LHW.

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Cant really disagree

I know that you don't rate his win over Tito, and I know you think he ducked Joe. So I'd love to read your thoughts on what I've written.

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More or less agree with most of what you have written but will say more at the end of this answer

In my opinion, Bernard only began to show ambition after he'd lost to Taylor twice, and he was in a position where he'd got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

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Cant say I disagree

If you weigh everything up, Roy has to have left the better legacy:

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This is the debate as legacy has to be based on everything worth noting in a career

He achieved more.

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In some things yes but not in other things ie yes Jones won more titles at different weights, Hopkins made more defences at a weight etc

He was more dominant in his prime.

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Not sure really. Hopkins MW reign was dominant, but Jones was more flashy IMO

He didn't have the physical advantages that Bernard did over most of his opponents.

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I think many could say Jones had a physical advantage with speed, but I do know what you are trying to say and I also think Hopkins had to remain very disciplined to stay at MW and be strong, as he was a big MW often facing fighters who I think were naturally smaller

He was more ambitious in his prime.

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You have to look at an overall career and Hopkins has shown ambition also, but yes the jump to HW was a big move, but that was a one off fight and Toney did similar without being noticed as much

He tried to fight guys like: Liles, Dariusz, Holyfield and Bernard in a rematch.

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Lets stop this bit as some of this is debateable and you must take in all information and not just what you want to acknowledge

He came up from JMW.

In my opinion, he has a better resume.

His best wins were over naturally bigger opponents.

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I dont really think Toney was overly naturally bigger. You have to take into account sometimes the age of someone when they turned pro. Roy was something like 20 when he turned pro, so would likely be lighter than when he was 30. I wouldnt think R Johnson, M Griffin, Toney etc would have been overly naturally bigger. A fighter like Harding was a MW when he turned pro

He made history in going to HW and back.

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He did

He fought in stronger divisions until 2006.

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Whilst I agree with that, Jones didnt really clear a division like Hopkins did

He didn't look for a way out of fights like how Bernard did against Roy, Joe and Dawson.

In my opinion, all Bernard has over Roy, is his incredible longevity.

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The longevity has to be considered also.

Now the rest.

Had Hopkins and Jones fought at the time it was being mentioned when Hopkins was a MW champ and Jones a LHW champ, I would have favoured Jones

Whilst I can see your arguement and felt Hopkins fought many naturally smaller fighters (I dont think Hopkins has fought anyone he wasnt heavier than on his debut compared to the opponent on their debut. Could be wrong), I can see others arguements for longevity, consider Hopkins at LHW has beaten LHW champs Tarver, Pascal, Shumenov, Cloud which is close to Jones with Hill, Gonzalez, R Johnson, Tarver.

I see your points but also see the points of others.
Its debateable to me
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bailey · Jan 27, 2016

Loudon said: ↑

I can never tell when you're joking.

It may have looked good on paper because he'd have had the lineal belt, but in my opinion, it wouldn't have been in reality.

Erdei won the belt from Julio Gonzalez. (RIP) Without being disrespectful to him, Gonzalez wasn't a great fighter. He'd beaten a faded version of Dariusz for that belt, with a lot of people disputing the result. So Erdei beating Gonzalez wasn't awfully impressive to me.

Up until he'd beaten Gonzalez, who had he really beaten?

http://boxrec.com/boxer/23935

I don't see how Roy would have gotten much credit for beating him back then.

There's no way it would have been held in higher regard than the Tarver win for example, even though Erdei was undefeated and Tarver wasn't.

:good
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Erdei as you note would have been a fantastic win if Jones had of won, which I dont think he would of.
Erdei was an undefeated LHW champ who went on to have several good defences as well as becoming a CW champ
Erdei looked every bit as impressive when facing Gonzalez coming off a big name win however you view that result, which I have mentioned before as debateable

Mind Reader · Jan 27, 2016

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen Baliey and Loudon agree so much in a single post.

Mind Reader · Jan 27, 2016

Serge said: ↑

Fair enough. Why did you quit the porn industry though? I thought you said you really enjoyed working in it in that PM you sent me?
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:rofl:rofl

I missed this post somehow last night.

The food porn industry got kind of old... I am thinking of trying out the real thing... You have seen my pictures, do you think I have a chance??

MetalLicker · Jan 27, 2016

One thing is for sure. With each new loss, Jones is hurting his legacy. He has achieved more than Hopkins and was nearly unstoppable in his prime, but people are casting more and more doubts as he gets knocked out again and again. If he retired earlier and never faced Hopkins a 2nd time, this wouldn't even be a debate.

Serge · Jan 27, 2016

Loudon said: ↑

I'm in a routine similar to that.

It's going to be a shock when I return to work.

Would it have looked like Ray Mercer against Tommy Morrison?

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More like Dempsey vs Willard x 1000

Serge · Jan 27, 2016

Loudon said: ↑

Ha!

:rofl :rofl

That literally made laugh out loud.

Joe.Boxer was getting too turned on. And we didn't want to see another Yusaf Mack type incident.
Click to expand...

Serge · Jan 27, 2016

shanahan14 said: ↑

Not sure if that was meant to show Hopkins was cowardly or whatever word you see fit, but to me that doesn't matter.

It's like asking if you want an advantage with anything in life. If you can get one without cheating, why the hell would you not do it?
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Never said he was cowardly. Ugly as sin and a closet gay, yes. But I wouldn't call him a coward.

Serge · Jan 27, 2016

Mind Reader said: ↑

:rofl:rofl

I missed this post somehow last night.

The food porn industry got kind of old... I am thinking of trying out the real thing... You have seen my pictures, do you think I have a chance??
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I know you have a chance with a weapon like that. Last time I saw one that big it was swinging between the legs of a rather large bull.

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