Better Legacy: Hopkins or RJJ

u asked ME for an excuse. I gave u mine. Do you have some short recall memory problem where you forget what you just asked people?

Hopkins is the furthest exception you can possibly name regarding old age boxing success. he is the record holder for titleholding and age. there is no one you could mention who would be MORE of an exception than him.

you can deny this all you want, but don't expect anyone to join u, certainly not me.

 

I've already answered that. If Marciano had a 100 wins all by KO and no losses up to a point and then starts getting KO'ed and losing fights left and right and keeps going, I'm going to say that yes, Marciano's rep and overall legacy is being lessened and impacted by his ongoing performance in his career. In the insane case of him being diagnosed with parkinsons and the boxing commision decided to be evil and let him continue fighting and he continues losing, then yes that too impacts his career.

 

Jones won trinket belts. He was not THE champion because he REFUSED to fight the fighters he would have to beat to be named such. This isn't up for debate. Bernard absolutely has the better wins against Prime competition. He didn't move up to Light Heavyweight and fight some trinket ABC beltholder like Jones did in fighting Ruiz he fought THE champion. That matters. A lot. Jones win against Ruiz was meaningless.

Plus Hopkins was never a convicted PED cheat. Jones career was smoke and mirrors and as more time goes on people are realizing that.

 

You're the one arguing about Ali fighting with a medical condition that precludes him from fighting in a discussion about RJJ. I think maybe you are the one with cognitive/memory issues?

I asked you What because you said you never saw RJJ fight. It just sounded odd being this is an RJJ thread that includes discussion of RJJ's fighting.

But go ahead, continue to make a fool of yourself.

 

yeah and I have't shown I had forgotten it at all.

why are you trying to claim I've forgotten I'd made this argument?

FLOP again mate. U going for a hatrick?

 

You seem to have forgotten that Ali can't fight due to his condition and this makes your example of him fighting with it meaningless and pointless. Either that or you have some cognitive issue that doesn't allow for sensible argument.

What does you not seeing Roy fight have to do with your excuse as an RJJ fan?

 

So which one are you claiming now -

you claiming I had forgotten I used Ali as an example?

OR

you claiming I forgot Ali had Parkinsonians?


let me know and then I can come back to you. this is too easy, but you bring on yourself with either claim.

 

seriously? Do Usain Bolt's world records become less than the greatest ever if he flubbers up in his forties and loses regional level races?

you claiming that if Marciano starts losing to journeymen when he comes back in his 40s, you'd feel you need to reduce the value of his championship career?

why are those primer wins made lesser, because of what happens in his "shot" career?

 

Let me get this straight, I have no problem giving Hopkins extra kudos for extending his career incredibly.


But you cant penalise someones previous world career for getting clapped out by bums when they are turned fatty 40something trying to stave off the taxman's advances.

You need to add up all the positives for a sum total of acheivement, not detract from it.

edit - apologies to enzo mac, but, mate, yesu are one hell of a thickbrick bum. and no I wouldtn say it to your face.

 

Good post.

Toney was a 5'10, former MW, who'd had nearly 80 fights, and who was out of shape and pushing 40, when he was fighting guys like Sam Peter.

Since then though, he's lost to guys in Britain's "Prizefighter" tournament, losing to guys like Jason Gavern. This was while Hopkins was giving his all against Kovalev at 50.

In my opinion, many people will say that Hopkins has a better legacy than Toney, because what's happened recently seems to influence people's decision making a lot more. That's how I see it.

 

Against Pascal?

I respect your opinion, it was a great win considering how old Bernatd was. But I can't agree with it.

Roy was once a JMW, and he went up to just under 200 pounds and then dominated Ruiz with absolute ease, even though Ruiz was 30 pounds heavier than him. Apart from when Tua caught him, nobody had an easy fight against him. He was very tough. Also, no other LHW's around that time wanted to try their hand at HW, and nobody has done since.

 

No contest?

That's absolute nonsense.

I agree that we can't ignore the latter stages of Roy's career. That wouldn't be objective at all. But it has to be put into perspective.

What equally can't be ignored, is the following:


Roy once fought as a JMW.

It took Bernard 3 years before he fully commited to fighting at MW.

He made incredible sacrifices both mentally and physically to fight there, even though it was a weak division.

He had size advantages over almost all of his opponents at MW.

He showed zero interest in moving up to SMW/LHW to fight better competition, until he'd lost twice to Taylor.

He turned down $6m to rematch Roy at a CW in 2002.

If Roy hadn't left the MW division in 94, and relinquished his IBF belt, Bernard's historic MW run would NEVER have happened.


Doesn't anyone else find it convenient, that he only fought guys like Tarver and Calzaghe etc, after he'd been beaten twice by Taylor, and there was nowhere left for him to go?

Doesn't anyone else wonder why he committed to fighting at MW in 93, when all the former greats had either retired or moved up to SMW?

Doesn't anyone else wonder why he had no interest in fighting Roy in 2002, yet he was happy to fight him in 2010, despite saying he was washed up in 2008?

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Benz/Benz_1112a08.htm


I've honestly got a huge amount of respect for Bernard. But these heroic performances against the likes of Kovalev wouldn't have happened when he was younger in my opinion. He only fought guys like that where he was in a position where he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

We also need to remember his antics in the ring. He threw himself on the floor against Calzaghe to gain a breather, and he tried to get out of fights against Dwason and Roy, by feigning injury to gain a NC or a DQ.

So whilst I respect what he did in his career, including his fantastic wins over the likes of Pavlik in his 40's, it doesn't alter the fact, that Roy achieved more, he was far more dominant in his prime, and in my opinion, he has the better resume.

To say that this is a no contest, primarily based on how their careers have reached a finale, is absolutely ridiculous.

Roy did more, and tried to do more when it mattered the most.

 

A ridiculous comment.

Even if he fought in to his 50's continuing to get knocked out, we can't suddenly forget that a former JMW went up to HW, and dominated almost everyone in his path, barely losing rounds to most guys, whilst picking up titles in 3 divisions along the way and only losing 1 of 50 fights.

 

Nobody has ever said that Ruiz was a great HW. But he was tough and awkward to fight, and apart from when Tua caught him with a perfect shot when he was younger, nobody had an easy time with him.

Roy had fought almost 50 times when he went up to just under 200 pounds to fight him, and 20 of those fights were fought between JMW-MW.

On the night, Roy was outweighed by over 30 pounds.

It doesn't matter which way you slice it, no other LHW's at the time thought about moving up, and you have to give Roy credit for dominating him with absolute ease.