Better overall skills: Roy Jones jr or Sugar Ray Leonard

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Flo_Raiden, Feb 21, 2012.


  1. Flo_Raiden

    Flo_Raiden Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Who was the more skilled boxer at their best? And who was better H2H?
     
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  2. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jab- Leonard
    Hook-Roy
    Cross- Roy
    Uppercut- Leonard
    Defensive skills- even
    Offensive skills- Leonard
    Footwork- Leonard
    Counter-Punches- Leonard, this is close
    Power- Roy
    Speed- Roy
    Ring Generalship- Leonard
    Combinations- Leonard
    Feints- Roy
    Accuracy- even
    Timing- even
    Killer Instinct- even, both were good
    Body Punches- Leonard, close.both were awesome body punchers
    Upper Body movement-close, Leonard imo
    Chin-Leonard
    Heart- even
    Stamina- even
    In-Fighting- Leonard
    Range Fighting- Leonard
     
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  3. Moochie

    Moochie Member Full Member

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    Technically, Leonard. Head to head it's pretty much a wash. For fun I'll give Vic's categories a go:

    Jab- Leonard
    Hook- Jones (very close)
    Cross- Jones
    Uppercut- Even
    Defensive skills- Leonard skill-wise, though Jones was more difficult to hit in reality, so close one to Jones
    Offensive skills- Leonard
    Footwork- Jones
    Counter punching- Jones in a very close one
    Power- Jones
    Speed- Jones
    Ring Generalship- Jones
    Combinations- Leonard
    Feints- Even
    Accuracy- Even
    Timing- Even
    Killer instinct- Leonard
    Body punching- Leonard
    Upper Body movement- Even
    Chin-Leonard
    Heart- Leonard
    Stamina- Even
    In-Fighting- Leonard (close)
    Range Fighting- Jones (close)

    So it comes out 9-8-6 for Jones. Well damn if that ain't close.
     
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  4. Leonard more skilled..jones more athletic ability.
     
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Hard to say. My default answer was jones but the more I think about it, the more I lean towards leonard.

    In terms of how the look both go in the same tier for me.

    In terms of h2h I choose jones but only because there's noone i'd pick to beat him. Leonard loses to robinson and hearns imo in fantasy fights.
     
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  6. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Leonard actually had decent fundamentals, and very good footwork, from his days in the amateur program.

    Roy relied WAY more on his physical gifts than Leonard, so I'll say Leonard was the better fighter overall. If they were put in the same ring, at the same size, with each of their speed and punching power made equal, Leonard would soundly outbox Roy.

    BUT Roy Jones was easily the more phenomenal athlete. We've never seen faster hands in the weight class, and his reflexes were so good as to be near predictive.


    Leonard was the better boxer because he had to have some element of fundamental skill in his approach at the high level. Roy never needed it, and thats why his athleticism is one of the most potent weapons in boxing history.
     
  7. SouthpawJab

    SouthpawJab On his way up!! 4-0!! Full Member

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  8. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    Hearns?
     
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  9. True...its also why Roy declined as a fighter overall so much once his reflexes took just a bit of a dive. Total reliance on athletic ability and natural timing. Which allowed him to do things he really shouldnt have done caught up with him, and unlike Ali, he didnt really adjust.
     
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  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I like the fact you've broken it down, but sort of disagree with the following:

    Defensive Skills - Jones was hit allot less and generally much more evasive. He wasn't as good as slipping punches. You could put this down to competition but Leonard was also hit more at a lower level. Or you could put it down to reflexes but I'd say general skillset too

    Upper Body Movement - Jones is just much better at slipping at punches

    Counter Punches - 1 of Jones greatest strengths

    Offensive Skills - you rate Jones as having a better hook, cross and power. Generally Leonard was more aggressive in his bigger strengths but does this make him more offensively talented? You did miss off combination punching, at their best Jones was the more spectacular combo puncher

    Ring Generalship - Leonard fought the wrong fight in Duran 1 and was getting outboxed by Hearns and Mayweather Sr, Jones nearly always fought his fight and controlled the pace barely losing a round. Again you could use the argument of competition here I suppose

    The funny thing about this post is allot of Leonard's critics (not myself) accuse Leonard of being a track star, an athlete and not a fighter. I think Leonard arguably relied on physical gifts every bit as much as Jones and when he slowed against Norris and Camacho, he faded just as much as Jones did when past prime



    People always compare the Ali comparison out claiming Ali aged better, Jones didn't lose (really) until the age of 35, let's look at Ali 34 onwards:

    Young - controversial win many thought he lost
    Dunn - journeyman win
    Norton - very controversial win many thought he lost
    (35) Evangalista - journeyman win
    (35) Shavers - somewhat controversial win
    (36)Spinks - loss to a gatekeeper level fighter
    (36)Spinks 2 - revenge win
    (38 ) Holmes - humiliating loss
    (39) Berbick - close loss

    Ali did show a better chin, but didn't get hit less in old age
     
  11. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Correct.

    It was technical flaws that got Roy stopped when his speed started to tail off. Hands in the improper place, right foot too far back, turning his back to punches without bringing up the shoulder, etc.

    If Ray wasn't fundamentally skilled, he'd have had no answer for Hearns jab and right hand, and would have been kayoed early. He actually avoids and sidesteps a ton of what Hearns was throwing, and I fully believe that he could have taken more damage in that fight had a larger skill deficit existed. There goes his greatest win. Without his tremendous lateral movement and spacing, he'd have never embarassed a master like Duran in New Orleans. Theres another great win.

    He made Hagler, one of the more accurate punchers in boxing, especially with his jab, miss half his punches. He outjabbed and outmaneuvered Wilfredo Benitez.

    Fact is, while a prime Roy was harder to hit, had a past it Roy had Leonards skills(To this day he retains a good chunk of his hand speed and power), he'd have never take the punches that knocked him out, and he wouldn't have been bullied so badly by Tarver.

    To me, its the third Tarver fight that most demonstrated Jones technical limitations. Without his peak speed and reflexes, he had no real answer for Tarver's jab, could hardly figure out how to get out of corners and off the ropes, and when under fire, just tried to block and wait Tarver out, aside from one burst in the fifth when he tried to fight out of the perimeters. These same flaws got him school against Calzaghe.

    Not saying he wins these fights with better fundamentals, but he doesn't get so badly embarassed and beaten up in them, thats for sure.
     
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  12. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Throw Camacho out. Its not even fair to sample. He was coming off a layoff almost as long as George Foremans, and was older than Roy was when he started falling off.

    Norris I'll give you, but I argue that Norris always gives Leonard trouble of some variety. He was fast, good, and punched in combination with movement. Had a similar style to Leonard and had physical gifts about as good(Maybe a bit slower), and matchups like that are always a headache.
     
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  13. ThinBlack

    ThinBlack Boxing Addict booted

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  14. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    1- I will put down to reflexes and the fact that Leonard not only faced better fighters, but better offensive fighters.....it´s easier to be hit when you are facing Duran, Hearns or even guys like Marcos Geraldo.....offensive guys.....

    2- It´s really close in my opinion actually...can go either way......

    3- Yes....but it´s also one of the greatest SRL strenghts IMO.....very close...

    4- We disagree here....SRL is the better combination puncher for me...and the guy with the better jab, what makes him set up his attack better......with that said...LEonard´s uppercut and body punches give him the edge here.....

    5- Leonard´s jab is just better in my view and that´s my main reason to give him the edge here....Jones never faced a boxer as good (and as tall) as Hearns, and I wouldn´t say he was being outboxed by Floyd.....
     
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  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Yeah I think, more often than not, tommy evades the knockout.
     
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