Better resume: Benny Leonard or Archie Moore

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Ioakeim Tzortzakis, Dec 7, 2025.


  1. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

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    I've long thought that nobody could break the "Big 5" ranking, AKA Robinson, Armstrong, Langford, Charles and Greb. Those 5 guys' resumes are just so far ahead of the rest that the only comparisons that should be made are between themselves. Basically 90% of classic has them as their top 5. It's so set in stone that the possibility anyone replaces them just feels wrong. I think that may be what's wrong, though. I think Benny Leonard and Archie Moore could, or that they're at least close enough and should be considered at the very least. The more I've learned about the two, the bigger that possibility becomes. But if forced to pick, who is the greater of the two ?

    Benny Leonard:

    2-1 vs Freddie Welsh (Only man to KO Welsh in 168 fights to take his title)
    2-1 vs Jack Britton (a DQ due to hitting him while being down, could easily be 3-0)
    2-0 vs Lew Tendler
    4-0 vs Rocky Kansas
    4-0 vs Soldier Bartfield
    4-2-2 vs Johnny Dundee
    2-0 vs Ritchie Mitchell
    1-0 vs Pinky Mitchell
    1-0 vs Lockport Jimmy Duffy
    2-0 vs Frankie Callahan
    1-0 vs Charley White
    1-0 vs Mel Coogan
    2-0 vs Patsy Cline
    1-1 vs Johnny Kilbane
    1-1 vs Willie Ritchie
    4-1 vs Phil Bloom (the loss when Leonard was only 17)
    1-0 vs Paulie Walker
    1-0 vs Billy Townsend
    0-1 to Jimmy McLarnin (when he was a fossil)
    0-0-1 vs Ted Kid Lewis

    Fun fact, Leonard actually managed to beat two top 10 rated Welterweights during his comeback prior to McLarnin beating him. The then #8 rated Paulie Walker and #6 rated Billy Townsend.

    Hugely underrated resume, on the whole. Owner of perhaps the best overall Lightweight run ever, while definitely having the best single win at 135 (that KO of Welsh), and is 9-0 in title fights at the weight. Let us not forget Lightweight is the deepest and probably the overall best division in Boxing history.

    He's also 1-1 with a top 10 ATG Featherweight, the loss when he was only 19. Even crazier, he's basically 3-0 vs a top 5 ATG Welterweight, draws with that man's biggest rival in a fight that could have gone either way, goes 4-0 against a man that holds wins over both of these men AND Harry Greb, retires for 7-8 years, and then comes back one weight class higher to still beat the asses of 2 current top 10 fighters, before briefly hanging with a top 20-30 all time pound for pounder.

    To use the other Leonard as an example, imagine that most of his career is played out the same way. He rises up like a star, beats Benitez, loses to Duran in a close one before humiliating him, and then beats Hearns. But this time, he doesn't retire after the Bruce Finch fight. Instead, he does what Hagler always wanted and accepts the super fight when both are in their prime. They fight a trilogy, Leonard beats him twice, but loses once due to a Montell Griffin situation, but it's not held against him. He then draws with McCallum in a fight that could go either way, beats a slightly declining Marvin Johnson 4-0, and then retires for 7 years. He comes back and beats Reggie Johnson and Steve Collins, before losing to Roy Jones and hanging them up for good.

    That's Benny Leonard.

    Vs

    Archie Moore:

    4-1 vs Jimmy Bivins
    4-1 vs Harold Johnson
    3-0 vs Joey Maxim
    2-0 vs Lloyd Marshall
    2-0 vs Bert Lytell
    1-0 vs Cocoa Kid
    1-0 vs Bobo Olson
    2-0 vs Nino Valdes
    2-0 vs Yvon Durelle
    4-1-1 vs Jack Chase
    3-0-1 vs Oakland Billy Smith
    1-0 vs Bob Satterfield
    2-0 vs Nate Bolden
    2-0 vs Ron Richards
    3-0 vs Charley Doc Williams
    2-0 vs Alabama Kid
    1-0 vs Yolande Pompey
    1-0 vs Eddie Cotton
    1-0 vs Tony Anthony
    1-0 vs Jimmy Slade
    1-0 vs Alejandro Lavorante
    2-0 vs Willi Besmanoff
    1-0 vs Bob Baker
    2-0 vs Curtis Sheppard
    2-0 vs Bob Dunlap
    1-0 vs Clarence Henry
    1-1 vs Holman Williams
    1-1 vs Henry Hall
    1-1 vs Guilio Rinaldi
    1-1 vs Leonard Morrow
    1-2 vs Shorty Hogue
    0-1-2 vs Eddie Booker
    0-3 vs Ezzard Charles
    0-1 vs Charley Burley
    0-1 vs Rocky Marciano
    0-1 vs Muhammad Ali (older than dirt though)
    0-1 vs Floyd Patterson
    0-1 vs Teddy Yarosz
    0-1 vs Little Tiger Aaron Wade
    0-0-1 vs Willie Pastrano (when Moore was 45)

    So yeah, I think it's fair to say Moore's got just a tiny bit more depth than Benny :lol:

    Moore may actually have faced the best opposition ever. Ali, Marciano, Patterson, Burley, Charles, Williams, Marshall, Bivins, Johnson, Yarosz, Booker, Cocoa Kid, Chase, Lytell, Olson, Wade etc. Man really faced them all. Only Greb, Zivic and perhaps Langford could say otherwise.

    Oh, and he's both the oldest and yet longest reigning lineal Light Heavyweight champion ever, with the most lineal title defences. He also never lost to anyone he never beat at Light Heavyweight, except Charles himself. Ah right, he's also Boxing's KO king (I don't count that Billy Bird motha****a, he only KO'd bums)

    So, who's greater ? Are Moore's best wins better than Leonard's ? Is his depth and overall longevity too great for Benny ? Or is the Ghetto Wizard's superior consistency, dominance over his contemporaries, better success vs bigger men (As underrated as Moore is at HW, he doesn't have anything near Britton or Bartfield) and pure domination over arguably the best Lightweight division ever superior ?
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Great, great post. I am baffled as to whom they would replace in the top 5 but Armstrong looks in the consideration. I do find Leonard the slightest bit more impressive in his comprehensive excellence but the argument is there for either.
     
  3. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It depends what you mean by best resume.

    Moore fought the superior opposition, regardless of results against that respective opposition.

    Benny Leonard ranks higher for me, because his superior dominance more than offsets Moore's greater depth in opposition, imo.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I like Leonard's better. Both are very elite and in the same bracket IMO.
     
  5. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

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    Yeah, and it should be noted that Moore has the unfair advantage of fighting recorded ranked opposition, which gives us a very clear depiction of just how deep his resume is. Though then again, you can probably count the fighters with a deeper resume than Moore in only one hand anyway.

    Leonard's career prior to the comeback basically ended right before the ring rankings became a thing, so I was forced to pick out the standout names here, so it's possible I missed some other noteworthy fighters.
    How do you see the Britton wins in comparison to say, Duran's win over SRL and Armstrong's win over Ross ?
     
  6. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You certainly didn't miss any ATG's (well, Pal Moore is an ATG BW, but not an ATG win at LW). Joe Mandot and Frankie Britt are worth their place on your list of notable Leonard victories imo, even though Britt may have just been on the slide. Ever Hammer would have been ranked before their 2nd contest, had they existed then, too.
     
  7. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    Leonard had better hair. Greased back, clean part and it never got messed up during a fight, which is incredible.

    But it's the Mongoose for me. Had to wait many years for a shot at a title; had he fought and won a title at an earlier age he might have stayed champ for a decade or more. He has the most ko's or close to the most in boxing history.
     
  8. RockyValdez

    RockyValdez Active Member Full Member

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    Im going with Leonard. Several of the guys you listed as elite wins on Moores resume couldnt tie the shoes of most of those you listed on Leonards. Seems like excessive padding. I also think Leonard was more consistent at a higher level than Moore was.
     
  9. Sailor Joe

    Sailor Joe Member Full Member

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    Two of my favorite old timers. Great thread with fantastic details and comparison.

    Honestly, I think this is an example of why trying to rank numerically (1, 2, 3, etc.) doesn't work that well. Boxing has been around to long and gone through too many changes.

    I think Benny Leonard and Archie Moore absolutely belong with those 5.

    We should just rank by tiers and those 7 could easily be the top tier. They are all the best. The only way to rank guys of that quality above each other is to have preferences (longevity, peak wins, eye test, etc.).

    With all that said, if I had to pick I guess I'd go with Moore. Moore is one of those guys that seems to achieve a second 'peak' after leaving their athletic prime.

    Benny Leonard was a gym rat and a great thinker though. Maybe if he were in Archie's situation and denied a title shot until he was older, maybe he'd have found a second prime.

    Then again, maybe if Archie would have gotten a title younger, he might not have carried on so long...
     
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  10. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hi Buddy.
    You make some valid observations, well thought out, I am struggling to pick a winner ( sort of ) whilst having huge respect for Leonard, who wouldnt, I slightly favour Moore, not with total conviction though, it's a thought provoking topic.
    stay safe Sailor Joe, chat soon buddy.
    Mike.
     
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  11. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    So true Frank.
     
  12. Melankomas

    Melankomas Corbett beats your favourite fighter

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    Archie had the better hairLINE, though.
     
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  13. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Im more impressed with Moores
     
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  14. Yorbals

    Yorbals Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As close as can be really between Leonard and Moore.
    I go with Moore by a hair, I think he fought the better competition and his record while being less consistent, combined with his longevity does slightly do enough to offset Leonard’s Record.
    Well, Maybe.
     
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  15. Ted Spoon

    Ted Spoon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Leonard's dominance is what stands out. Consistency is a key part of greatness.

    Bob Fitzsimmons walks into the top five when he likes. I'd vouch a former middle stopping the HW champ is untouchable as wins go.