Better resume: Chavez or Whitaker?

Thats a shame Scientist.

I believe that fighters like Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Mosley, Hopkins, and even the Klitchko bros., compete in any era of boxing.

We may not be looking at the best era of boxing, but its far from the worst imo.

The only thing that bothers me somewhat is how easily fighter move up several weight classes and still manage to look fit as a fiddle.
In that regard, I can only speculate that like in alot of other sports, its being done in an unnatural way.

 

There is of course a difference between one-sided scorecards and one-sided fights. Whitaker-Chavez was not a one sided fight, but people that have him winning wide on the cards do so because they felt Whitaker had an edge in most rounds. That's not an unreasonable position I don't think.

Whitaker-Rivera is an arguable decision. An embarrassing performance by Whitaker, even though he did have an excuse (had the flu and needed antibiotics in the week of the fight).

Thing is, guys like Mosley and Hopkins were in their prime a decade ago. That they are still ruling today whilst being clearly past their primes shows that the divisions are not what they used to be. I can't think of any previous era really where the likes of a 37 year old Mosley and a 43 year old Hopkins would rise above contender level. Even in the 90's, which itself wasn't the strongest era.

Guys like Pac and Marquez have done well moving through the divisions and thus making themselves look good in the process, but really, I tell you this: Pac and Marquez would not have done anything at 135 or above in an era with the likes of Chavez and Whitaker at lightweight. Nor would they in Duran's time, or the time of Pryor or Napoles or Ortiz. I think they would struggle with featherweights like Johnny Famechon and Howard Winstone, who hardly anyone even knows about or talks about around here.

As for Mayweather, when was the last time he fought?

 

The problem stems imo, in that there are too many belts to go around in the various divisions.......so yes, it would have been alot more difficult for fighters like Hopkins and Mosley to be champions late in their careers if they had to face "the man in the division."
Mosley and Hopkins are still great fighters today, though they're not the best anylonger.


.....and its unfair to compare Marquez and Pacquiao to greats like Chavez and Whitaker. For one, we have'nt seen the end of Marquez and Pacquiao, and another is that we're talking about the very best in boxing history when you mention Chavez, Whitaker, Duran, etc.....

.....lets not forget that both Marquez and Pacquiao are naturally smaller than the fighters you mentioned.
P4P they may not be as good as those were, but they're certainly in the same league.
At least from my perspective, JMM certainly is.


Mayweather is just Mayweather....unfortunately SRL set the tone for prima donna's like that to do whatever the hell they pleased, and set fights when and whenever they wished.
But you cant take away that they're great fighters, you'd have to be totally biased not to see it.



What do you think about JMM-Mayweather?
In your opinion, can you see JMM being in the fight and being competitive?

I cant predict a JMM victory, but I got a strong sense that JMM is going to show up with a one track mind to do whatever it takes to win.
As boxing fans, thats all that we can ask for of fighters.

 

No doubt the numerous belts have diluted things, but even beyond that, Mosley beat Margarito who many felt was the man in the division. Margarito is a very average fighter. IMO he is no better than Yory Boy Campas really, who of course was a peripheral issue in the 90's. Hopkins beat Tarver who most felt was the man at lightweight. Tarver is about as average a fighter as you will see at championship level. Again, Marquez just became the man at lightweight beating a geriatric Joel Casamayor. I just think the general standard is lower nowadays than what it was in the past.

It's not just Duran, Chavez and Whitaker though. I could mention plenty of lightweights in the last 30 or 40 years I wouldn't give the likes of Pac and Marquez much of a chance against. To wit: Arguello, Pryor, Buchanan, Laguna, Dejesus, Gonzalez (el Gato), DLH, Mosley. Even the Camachos, Viruets, Rosarios and Ramoses I'd probably favour by quite a bit.

Now sure, there were only a couple of those around at any one time, but still, where is a fighter on those guys' level around at lightweight today? Juan Diaz? Nate Campbell? Even the Roger Mayweathers and Freddie Pendeltons would destroy these guys.

If only Mayweather would fight Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler level fighters instead of Hatton, Corrales, Castillo and an ancient DLH! Not his fault really, guys at that level aren't around, but he still manages to avoid plenty of guys whilst fighting so-so comp. I do think Floyd has great skills though.

I'm not sure. Don't know where Mayweather is at right now, but if he is say at the level he was against Hatton he should beat Marquez fairly comfortably. If he has declined it could be interesting.

That said who knows how Marquez will carry the weight. He hasn't impressed me at lightweight (him pretty much being on even terms with an ancient Casamayor after 10 rounds is a BAD sign for his prospects, and Juan Diaz is a guy that moves his hands first and thinks later...) and so moving up to welter seems like it's going to be too far a step.

 

Dont overstep it Scientist, the Gato Gonzalez' and Freddie Pendleton's of the world would never beat the likes of Marquez and Pac.......and c'mon, please dont let me hear from you an excuse for Mayweather if he should get beat by JMM.

Unless he's stationary and becomes a punching bag like DLH did against Pacquiao, there is not reason not to give Marquez his proper due if he should pull the upset.

Marquez did get hit a bit by Casa and Diaz.....but what fighter like JMM who is at the ready to counter every single opportunity would'nt have gotten hit by those fighters.
I dont see Marquez being as free to deliver at every opportunity against Mayweather. He knows Mayweather can match him skill wise, so he's not going to be getting hit as much as he did against Diaz and Casa, who imo Marquez gauged would not hurt him.

I believe Marquez will apply the pressure, but pick and chose when and where to unleach fury.
If you saw against Diaz, understanding where he was and under the circumstances of fighting in Diaz' backyard, he was'nt about to pull a Whitaker and go the safety first route of I'm going to flick the jab and you're not going to be able to touch me......


Sorry Scientist, but I think Marquez late in his career has made the adjustment that Pernell Whitaker failed to realize to make. He knows that judges want to see effective hurtful punches landed......to do otherwise against a fighter like Juan Diaz who's in your chest throughout the fight, is really asking for it to go against you on the scorecards.

The Mayweather fight will be a little different than the Casa and Diaz fights as Mayweather plays more to the safety side.......Eventually I believe Marquez has the repertoire to "force" Mayweather to open up.
.....in doing so, Mayweather will either physically start to fold, or it will bring out the best in him and he'll shine.

.......but make no mistake, JMM is not going to play it safety first, and he'll make Mayweather to have to "earn" his victory if it comes his way.

 

You do know I am talking about the Rodolfo Gonzalez of the 1970's right? The guy that beat the likes of Navarro and Carmona and held Cervantes to pretty much even in their fight before being stopped on a cut eye. The Gonzalez that Duran wanted no part of.

I am NOT talking about the Rodolfo Gonzalez of the 1980's who was a far inferior fighter. The 70's Gonzalez would beat the hell out of Pac and Marquez imo.

As for Pendleton, wasn't saying he'd beat Pac and Marquez, I was saying he would beat the likes of Diaz and Campbell. And really, I don't see anything weird in saying that. He has beaten better fighters.

JMM's only real chance is if he does face a way past it Mayweather. On current form he looks to be fading himself, so I highly doubt he'll beat a Mayweather in decent form.

Well, if Marquez was so skilful, why would he try and bring the fight to Casamayor when really, it was only keeping him more or less on even terms with him for 11 rounds? If he was so skilful why didn't he try and outbox him instead of scrapping with him?

Marquez is going to have to do the same with Mayweather, becuase let's face it, his skill level is not up there with Floyd's. He was struggling to land a punch on Chris John, he had all he could handle with Freddie Norwood and even an old Barrera was schooling him in moments of their fight, he isn't going to be outboxing Floyd Mayweather. He is going to have to try and grind him. By so doing, he will leave himself open to plenty of shots. Mayweather will pot shot and move as he does. He will land plenty of flush shots on him I think.

Don't think he had any choice really. Juan Diaz was all over him constantly flurrying. Marquez doesn't have anythign near the defensive ability as Whitaker to have a say in the matter.

I really struggle to see Marquez forcing the best out of Mayweather. I think Floyd will win a boring decision or maybe stop Marquez late, but again, this is assuming that Floyd is still Floyd Mayweather and not past it.

 

I'll concede I'm no expert on Rodolfo Gonzalez, but Duran ducking him?
I think I've heard it all!


We will see about JMM-Mayweather.....but its dissapointing to me that posters like yourself are ready to dismiss a JMM victory as it not being the same Mayweather.:-(

I can see a scenario where the exchanges at ring center go down the middle even or even slightly to Mayweather, but JMM wins the fight with his workrate while Mayweather lies on the ring ropes as he likes to do.

I dont know who you had winning the first Tarver-Jones fight, but I can very much see a similar scenario unfold with JMM-Mayweather where workrate actually wins the fight in alot of peoples minds.

Personally, I did'nt have that Tarver-Jones fight close, off memory I believe I had Tarver up 3 maybe 4 points.
I believe it was a 8-4 type of scenario.

Jones looked good when he let his hands go at ring center, but he just was'nt active enough to win the rounds on my scorecard.

Something very similar can happen to Mayweather.....and you cant chalk it up to him being spent or not the same Mayweather, because he's fought with that type of workrate in his last several fights.


Btw, why would'nt it be the same Mayweather showing up vs JMM?
The man always keeps himself in shape, and up to the point when the fight was announced, Mayweather had actually only been off less than a year and a half.

It appears to me that Mayweather just took a year off and started training again......found out in the gym he still has it, and planned to fight again.

I see absolutely no reason why we would'nt see the same Mayweather that knocked out Hatton.

 

i think whitaker but thats cause i am taking ramirez and chavez fights as wins for him



SWEET SCIENTIST - GREAT READ

 

It was Duran's manager that refused the fight. Duran of course, would have fought anybody put in front of him.

If JMM beats a Mayweather that doesn't show signs of decline all credit to him. I don't think it will happen, but I could be wrong, in which case, I'm not going to just automatically pull out the 'Mayweather is shot' line. I will have to see how Mayweather performs. I can't say beforehand that Marquez should get credit no matter what if he wins. We have to wait and see how things unfold in the ring.

Mayweather has been a fighter hard to impose a workrate upon, as we've seen in fights with Hatton and Chavez. Marquez will have to land at a good percentage to be effective I think.

I had the fight a draw, but I can see what you're saying.

Last several fights is history. We'll have to see what happens on the night. It's like saying Chavez was prime when he lost to Randall because he was still in his prime a few months earlier against Whitaker. Decline can happen very quickly, for numerous reasons.

We can't say how he will perform beforehand. I'll call it as I see it in the ring. To do otherwise is to be presumptious.

 

take away the vote of the Pea freaks, and this poll would be about 56-1 chavez

 

Cheers mate :good

 

Take away the votes of fat, bald ******s with down syndrome, and the poll would be about 39-33 in favor of Whitaker, rather than 39-34.

 

Chavez- has an edge in opossition, reigned for over 13 years, fought 115 fights (compared to 40 something) of witch he won 107 most by ko.

 

Whitaker.

 

Why are your panties so bunched up honey? You don't have to stick up for your man, Pea's work speaks for itself. I understand how much you love that coco flavored ****, but seriously darling... PMS is SO not attractive in a man.