Better resume - Jack Sharkey or Max Schmeling

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by 70sFan865, Apr 30, 2020.


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  1. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    I posted this in another thread:

    During the 13 fights prior to Dempsey, Sharkey fought and beat 6 top ranked contenders in a 20 month period while going undefeated. All while being professional for 1.5-3 years. That's something Schmeling never did.

    I can even go on. In the 10 fights after that he fights 7 top ranked contenders going 7-2-1 with 4 knockout victories. Then he loses to Schmeling by DQ while winning the early rounds and you've said yourself that you can tell the verdict of a fight by only 3 rounds. Then he fights Mickey Walker and Carnera. All 3 back to back.

    Schmeling NEVER did this in his entire career. Sharkey's career from september of 1925-september of 1933 was mostly back to back fights against the best competition in the division! In summary from 1925-1933 Jack Sharkey fought 38 times, 24 of those were top contenders! 8 of those fights were against world champions of at least one weight division. Total record was 28-8-2 for that time period.
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #16
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  2. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    The closest that Schmeling came to doing what Sharkey did in terms of consistently fighting the best was between feb 1929- feb 1934 he fought 8 of the top fighters back to back going 5-3.

    Sharkey was clearly over the hill by 1932 considering in his next few fights he went on to lose against guys he beat or even knocked out in 3 rounds (Carnera and Loughran) and lost to Levinsky who me most certainly would have beaten even just 2 years prior.
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #17
  3. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Could you make the list of Sharkey's best wins?
     
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #18
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  4. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Herr Schmeling.
     
    Dubblechin, May 1, 2020
    Dubblechin, May 1, 2020
    #19
  5. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    I'll do you better. I'll show you a list of all of the top fighters that Sharkey and Schmeling fought in chronological order and how many times they fought them along with wins. You can deduce from it what you will.

    Sharkey
    Johnson - 1 win
    Rojas - ko loss
    Maloney 4x - decision loss, 3 wins
    Weinert 2x - decision losses
    Renault - 1 win
    Gorman - 1 win
    Godfrey - 1 win
    Wills - 1 win
    Dempsey - ko loss
    Heeney - Draw
    Risko 2x - 1 win, decision loss
    Delaney - 1 win
    Stribling - 1 win
    Loughran 2x - 1 win, decision loss
    Scott - 1 win
    Schmeling 2x - 1 win, dq
    Walker - draw
    Carnera 2x - 1 win, ko loss
    Levinsky - decision loss
    Joe Louis - ko loss

    Schmeling
    Risko - 1 win
    Uzcudun 3x - 2 wins. 1 draw
    Sharkey 2x - 1 win
    Stribling - 1 win
    Walker - 1 win
    Baer - ko loss
    Hamas - 1 win, 1 decision loss
    Neusel - 1 win
    Louis - 1 win, 1 ko loss


    Let the record also show that 12 of Sharkey's 13 losses during his entire career were against top ranked heavyweights. Only 3 out of Schmeling's 10 losses were against top ranked opponents.

    Answer me this. If Schmeling had fought Sharkey's schedule instead of his own how do you think he would fare?
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #20
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  6. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ranking does not always tell the whole story, but I agree with you - Sharkey had overall tougher schedule than Schmeling. It's important to note that Sharkey was a natural HW, while Max started as a LHW who made his name in Europe before coming to America.

    I'd expect Schmeling to have more losses with Sharkey's schedule, but he would also have more wins.

    You made a mistake - officially Schmeling had 4 losses against the best fighters, you didn't count Sharkey loss.

    My problem with Sharkey>Schmeling is that Max has by far the best win here (Louis) and best second win (I count second Sharkey fight as a win). Then it becomes closer, but Sharkey's best name (Willis) came when Willis was way past his prime. I think that his best wins are Loughran, Godfrey and Carnera - are they better enough to overcome the best Schmeling's wins? It's tough to say, in my opinion they are not.

    One last thing - Schmeling did better against the same competition:
    - Schmeling knocked out prime Risko, Sharkey won against green Johnny and lost rematch against more experienced Risko,
    - Schmeling knocked out Stribling, Sharkey didn't although technically the results are the same here,
    - Schmeling dominated Walker and stopped him, Sharkey drew with Mickey and definitely struggled against him,
    - Sharkey got destroyed by the same version of Louis that Schmeling beat, although I'll give you that Jack was more past his prime than Max.

    Then I believe that Schmeling should get the nod over Sharkey in ther H2H series. Sure, Sharkey won first three rounds in first fight, but he fouled Max and lost. Schmeling won second fight cleanly and I won't change my mind, I've seen the film a few times.

    If you want quantity over quality, then Sharkey could be your man here. More amount of losses are understendable given busier schedule. Shakrey never peaked as high as Max though and he didn't fare better against the same opponents.
     
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #21
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  7. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    Post clips of the second Schmeling fight that you think are indicators that he won the fight. Show specific exchanges or whatever you want. Use streamable.com

    How was Risko green? He had more fights than Sharkey! Turned pro earlier too.
    Schmeling was a bigger puncher than Sharkey. I'll admit that every day of the week.
    Sharkey deserved the nod against Walker. The thread you linked doesn't show any evidence, just other posters making statements.
    Sharkey was waaaay past it at that point. He couldn't even beat unranked fighters much less Joe Louis.

    You need to also acknowledge that Schmeling sat on the title for a whole year before defending it when he should have given Sharkey an immediate rematch. He ducked an immediate rematch with Sharkey because he would have lost.

    That makes absolutely no sense. Sharkey can't fight himself. It's not a good win if he didn't even win in reality.
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #22
  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I will when I have more time.
    I know that, neither was at their best. When they fought closer to their primes, Risko beat Sharkey.
    He still put up far worse performance than Schmeling, even if we agree that he should have won.
    He gave him rematch and got robbed.
    He won by all accounts. You are probably the only one who disagree with it on this board.
     
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #23
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  9. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Extremely close. Think it's max for me, with the win over Louis.
     
    Fergy, May 1, 2020
    Fergy, May 1, 2020
    #24
  10. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    So now Sharkey should have one? Okay.

    2 years later when Sharkey was past prime. Sharkey waited an entire year for the rematch.

    I've watched the fight footage available twice now in the last 24 hours. That's a complete fabrication of events. Schmeling had the much more appealing style but he wasn't winning by any wide margin. Sharkey had him missing and was interrupting his attack all the time. I'll admit Schmeling came back in the later rounds and was having the better of the action at parts but the best he should get is a draw.
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #25
  11. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I will post highlight points of each fighter for each round

    Round I

    This content is protected

    Max countered Sharkey's jab with nice right hand. It didn't bother Sharkey, but it definitely landed.
    This content is protected

    Nice counter to the body by Sharkey
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    Another good body punch from Sharkey

    It wasn't a fast paced round, I'd call it even. Sharkey countered Max with some body punches while Schmeling made some work inside and had one decent counter right.

    Round II

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    Schmeling landed some jabs.
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    Sharkey tried another body punch, this time Max defended it and came with combination, He landed two punches to the head and missed third.
    https://streamable.com/paqyaa
    Sharkey landed a jab.
    https://streamable.com/d95ob5
    Sharkey countered Max nicely, but then got tagged with jab and quick right hand. This exchange was won by Max.

    This round was better than first one, some nice exchanges between fighters, both showed good amount of defensive skills too. I give Schmeling this round, Sharkey didn't land much and just pawed with lazy jab. Schmeling tagged him with some rights, although in fairness Sharkey defended himself well for most of the time.

    Round III

    https://streamable.com/fbpa1s
    Schmeling landed a jab, then Sharkey tried a body shot (Max defended it well) and went for combination that missed. Then Max smothered him to avoid trouble. Decent try from Jack, but he didn't land anything here.
    https://streamable.com/z8qy8u
    Sharkey strated to double jab (it didn't bother Max), then he went to the body again. Can't tell if it landed due to camera, but looking at Max reaction I don't think it did.
    https://streamable.com/z86s1r
    Sharkey tried a left hook, but missed. Then Max went for combination and Sharkey showed amazing head movement (watch this in slow motion). These guys were really skilled!

    Another slow paced round with many nice defensive moves. Neither fighter landed much, Sharkey was a bit more agressive but I'd call it a draw.

    Round IV

    https://streamable.com/bgxpy0
    Another body attack by Sharkey, I think that first punch landed here.
    https://streamable.com/25gjj6
    Another landed body punch from Sharkey.
    https://streamable.com/kt9181
    Schmeling landed a jab, then after some misses from both fighters they came inside and Schmeling landed two rough uppercuts on Jack.
    https://streamable.com/svunkc
    I believe that Max landed right hand here, although it's tough to say here. Then he landed a jab.

    This is another close round, I'm not convinced from either fighter here. Jack had some nice body punches, but he missed a lot of jabs and Max outjabbed him this round. I can give it to Jack, but it could be another draw.

    Round V

    Doesn't exist

    Round VI

    https://streamable.com/0sl0lu
    Schmeling used left to the body twice, both connected.
    https://streamable.com/bnpl64
    Schmeling landed two jabs, then missed a combination (nice head movement by Jack).
    https://streamable.com/revoc2
    Both landed jabs, then Schmeling missed right hand.
    https://streamable.com/8jam7d
    Sharkey missed with left hook, Schmeling missed with right hand. Then Max found Sharkey with weak left hand.
    https://streamable.com/natzs2
    Schmeling landed another jab, then Jack threw combo with left to the body and right uppercut. Left missed but uppercut landed.

    This is Schmeling's round for me. He outjabbed Sharkey here and was more agressive. Outside of one good moment, Sharkey didn't do much in this round, looks like he wasn't motivated in this round.

    Round VII

    https://streamable.com/j9kdi8
    Sharkey tried right to the body and was countered by Max's right.
    https://streamable.com/zvg1xg
    Sharkey landed heavy jab.
    https://streamable.com/y1j876
    Schmeling landed another right.
    https://streamable.com/28hk8r
    Another right from Schmeling.

    Another Schmeling round, this time clearly to me. He landed some good punches while Sharkey did nothing.

    Round VIII

    https://streamable.com/9e93o0
    Schmeling landed two jabs, then Sharkey went to the body. Then there was rough exchange inside.
    https://streamable.com/7c8r2x
    Schmeling landed straight left, then he missed right hand. No response from Sharkey.
    https://streamable.com/upteli
    Schmeling landed a counter left hook. Not a strong punch but it landed.
    https://streamable.com/r3vff4
    Schmeling landed a counter right. Strong punch this time, clearly effected Sharkey.
    https://streamable.com/cd1xtd
    Schmeling landed another right. Sharkey's reflex helped him this time, as he did enough to neutralize power.

    Schemling upped the pace this round, he won it. Sharkey still showed some nice defensive moves, but he didn't do anything on offense.

    Round IX

    https://streamable.com/a5fzbj
    Another good example of good head movement from both fighters. Schmeling landed a right hand at the end of clip.
    https://streamable.com/bbaudu
    Sharkey missed two punches, then Schmeling landed jab.
    https://streamable.com/3f4f9h
    Sharkey landed a jab.
    https://streamable.com/puqasx
    Schmeling landed left hook.
    https://streamable.com/vpx7a1
    Good attack from Max, sneaky right hand.
    https://streamable.com/wzvd51
    Max landed very good counter right, followed by left hook.

    Another round for Schmeling.

    Round 10

    https://streamable.com/htoefe
    Sharkey lands solid jab.
    https://streamable.com/paiy1f
    Schmeling lands two jabs and Sharkey misses overhand right.
    https://streamable.com/eis6a1
    Max lands another strong right hand.

    Not much action in this round, but Schmeling landed more powerful blows and was more agressive again. Max round.

    I will finish this fight in next post. So far, I have it 6-1-2 for Max.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #26
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  12. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    I disagree with rd 3 being a draw. The clips you posted look like Sharkey having the better of the action.

    In rd 6 they're actually trading jabs in the second gif. Sharkey's left hook in the 4th gif actually landed and you can see Schmeling's head whip to the left. In the last gif Sharkey's body punch and uppercut/hook combination both landed. From the gifs you showed there Sharkey definitely looks to have the better of the action.

    In the 7th round it looks like Sharkey actually landed with his body punch and Schmeling's went over his head in that first gif. The last gif most if not all punches seem to miss their mark due to Sharkey's defense.

    I'd score that 1-3-2 or 2-2-2 if I'm being generous.
     
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    DanDaly, May 1, 2020
    #27
  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think prime Jack was better than Max, has slighter the better-definitely deeper resume- while Max did better against mutual opponents. Also, while I haven't seen all their second fight, I have it pretty even, most but not all reporters went with Max, but I feel they missed some of the subtly of Jack's boxing. He was a beautiful boxer and had Max floundering in their first fight. Not to degenerate Schmeling, he was a tough clever technician with a great right hand but Sharkey gets my vote. Great debate lads BTW informative and respectful!
     
    mattdonnellon, May 1, 2020
    mattdonnellon, May 1, 2020
    #28
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  14. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I haven't finished the fight yet, but in first 10 rounds Sharkey's problem was his activity. He couldn't do much against Schmeling who dodged most of his punches and he got outboxed and outworked, despite some nice defensive moves.

    I agree with you that Sharkey was outstanding boxer. I used to think he was overrated, now I got much higher appreciation to him. He's another one I think that was better than Jersey Joe Walcott.
     
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #29
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  15. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I suggest you to watch these moments in slow motion then, I did that with every single clip I posted.

    In sixth round, Sharkey didn't land body punch before uppercut, Schmeling catched this punch with his arms. The same with body punch in seventh round.

    I edited my post through 10th round, look at it again as Schmeling went strong at the beginning of second half of the fight.
     
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    70sFan865, May 1, 2020
    #30
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