Rare instance where both sides have a strong argument, so I have to step back and think longer on it!!
Quality in the uppermost echelon of each goes Leonard's way - but also, I suppose how you handle the opposition matters. Many disagree with the Hagler result - but then, so do many with all three of the JMM fights that didn't end in Pac getting KTFO. So maybe a wash there? Both careers were impressive but in somewhat different ways, that don't really make for apples to apples when comparing.
Maybe so. But not only that, these guys were all fighting each other and multiple times .. There were no 1 and dones as I remember. Pac fought MAB 2X, Morales 3X, and JMM 4X … When the hell have we seen that type of boxing in the last 40 years??
One thing that's clear: both of these men had extremely impressive resumes and career accomplishments. Salute to both of them.
The only fighter of note on this list is Morales, he was pretty much done by the time he fought Pac. Stop reaching for s****.
I think adding up the wins of a few fighters on Leonard’s resume is the reach, but that went over your head.
I think Pacquiao's run, from 2000 to 2009 (inclusive); going 23-1-2 (20KOs); from Super Bantamweight to Welterweight; including - Ledwaba, Barrerax2, Marquez x2, Larios, Solis, Morales x3, De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, is beyond impressive. What a decade!
25 Years in the Top 10. people forget just how good most of these fighters are, especially in days gone by, 'most' of these guys earned their way in, not all of them but most... the Top 10 and Noted fighters were at times great fighters, especially in Robinson's days. Pacman has fought a ton of worthy champions and fighters too, I just think that in a 25 plus year career, SOME of Robinson's opponents, whom you might not first call to mind, I'd say are as good or better even, than some of the Pacman's opponents.
Leonard’s career is basically coming out with a winning record at 147 in an era with some special fighters competing and moving up to 160 to narrowly beat a fading great champion. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say that if you dropped in a couple of great fighters +Marquez for Pac to fight at 130/35 and then told him to go to 147 and beat a fading great that he’d do okay. He practically pulled it off if you say he beat Morales, Barrera and Marquez at 126/30 and then beat Hatton at 140. On the other hand, Leonard would fail if he had to have success across so many weights over such a long period like Pac.
It is a different kind of career. Ray didn't have the love for boxing or the mental toughness to fight a long career like a Hearns or Duran or Pacman, which is a different kind of toughness than being able to fight at the highest level and beat the best like Ray did against Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. I think he dug down deep for those huge opportunities in ways and styles where maybe Manny could or most fighters could not go. He had the skills to back up the effort. He could do it all, but it took all of his mental energy and I think by 1982 he might have been mentally exhausted and needed those few years to regroup and do what he did which was handpick the rest of his career. Ray was not a fighter as much as a competitor more than he wanted to admit. I think Ray could go where many guys including Duran or Hearns or Hagler could not as far as greatness and wins, but at the same time his toughness or consistency for keeping it up was not there. He needed the mental boost to get the motivation more than most other guys. Those other guys fought so much they were on autopilot almost, which can be a detriment at times rather than help. And Ray knew this. Ray knew that having a challenge gave him the study and preparation to give him the edge, and to fight someone at the right time. He knew. And Hagler I think went into that autopilot mode a few times, and Hearns was the guy who brought him out of it. As for Ray, maybe had he had less challenges like he had with the 4 greats he fought, he would have settled into a consistent groove and been able to have a longer career with less big names. Say he didn't have Duran or Hearns or Benitez, could he have fought the Shields and Finch's and McCrorys and Currys and McCallums for years and years. Honestly I don't think so. I don't think he had the mental toughness, as when he got cut it seemed to take some fight out of him He would have lost his motivation or heart after a tough fight and retired and then come back and played his games. He didn't have the love for boxing as much as the love for competition and fame, but the fame got to his head-when he came out with a Michael Jackson song for the Hearns rematch it told me he thought he was as famous as Michael Jackson. He wasn't, but he wanted to let it seem like that. It is hard to say where he ranks but his wins against Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler are uncomparable in much of history. Not many guys beat that level and in the way he did. He was incredible regardless of a rather short career. I would say I rank him top 10 or even top 5. I cannot ignore the guys he beat and the styles he beat them at and weights. He was not as great defensively as most think he was especially when he went into offense mode, but he was underrated as far as power and heart.
To me Pac right now is a Top 25 ATG while Ray is a Top 15 ATG. It is not a huge gap and Pac might would prove if he beats somebody like Crawford or Spence.
