Better Resume: Tyson Fury or Ken Norton?

Norton's win over Ali alone tops Fury's resume.

 

Yes, that draw was a black eye for boxing and Fury was robbed but if you take that into the consideration, then you should take McDermott - Fury I into the consideration too. And it was a worse robbery than Wilder - Fury I draw.

 

It wasn't near as bad for mine.

 

You make some sound sensible points in there.

I'd agree Fury was steered carefully prior to getting his shot but so were guys like Cooney back in the day. Despite his sheer number of fights George Foreman was also steered carefully to his title shot. What top contenders did he beat prior to annihilating Frazier? Even a guy like Holmes has, what, one solid contender prior to his shot? Shavers was #7 at the time.

So i don't think it's fair to hint Fury ducked someone like Povetkin when others are seldom held to the same expectations. Much more important are the actual title reigns.

Totally agree on Joshua. He's had plenty of fights against plenty of contenders. Fair to say he took a loss against a not so highly ranked guy in Ruiz too.

There has been some fights made pitting contenders together tho. Povetkin and Whyte, Ruiz and Parker etc.

Covid has obviously had an effect on everything too in recent years.

Politics have been rampant in recent years. Wilder demanding the third fight killed off a very likely Fury - Joshua mega bout and then Joshua lost. They also tried to make Joshua - Wilder well back but that turned to crap. Apparently Joshua is not adverse to fighting Wilder now. If that somehow came off and we got Fury - Usyk that would be purrrrrfect. To get greedy we'd have Joshua and Fury winning and then facing off. What a present for heavyweight boxing those fights and results would be.

 

Fury’s beaten two long raining dominate world Champions as well as a few top contenders. Norton on the other hand has had a lot of his wins cancels out by rematches Ali being an example.

 

Also interesting there is Futch, who after they split later said he kept Norton away from punchers saying they were after Foreman and he expected Ken to outbox him. I've always said 60's Ali would decision Norton comfortably. There's Futch confirming it.

 

I believe Futch was referring to '70 and '71 Ali who beat Norton, which makes it all the more telling how a 60s Ali fairs with him. Keep in mind Futch was with Norton at the time he made these comments, so his alliances were wth Norton!

 

You are right too. It would take Ali back to the forefront of his second career. That's even more telling as you say.

 

Does that also mean Douglas, Rahman and McCall have better resumes than Fury?

 

Agreed.

While styles obviously came into it, Norton’s performances vs Ali are overly diluted and framed to be an over inflation of Ken’s broader worth - viz: Norton’s singular stylistic advantage over one ATG.

But then post prime Norton gave hell to another ATG in Holmes, a fight in which Norton might’ve arguably received a draw or even nicked the points. All possible handicaps removed, Norton’s age and Larry’s claimed injury and perhaps not yet hitting peak himself - many pundits find it hard to separate the two even IF prime v prime.

Biggest knock on Ken is coming apart against big punchers - but what punchers they were - he faced pretty much an absolute prime Foreman - Norton already 30 yo. For Shavers and Cooney, Ken was about 35 1/2 yo and near enough to 37 yo respectively.

To be fair. some might reason that younger Norton falls to them anyway - suggestion is he avoided Shavers earlier in the piece. But he did face both Shavers and Cooney at the height of their powers.

Though Shavers was older too, his very performance v Ken was arguably his best - extensively trained and a fit and ready 210 lbs, a seriously disciplined Shavers punched accurately, fast/steady and perfectly tight/short. The Louis of the Schmeling fight would’ve been proud -

The KO losses (including vs Garcia) are problematic in so far as detracting from the wins to some degree.

For mine, Norton beat Ali 2 out of 3. It seems Norton is often misquoted on this (though I could be wrong) but I recall Ken saying he won 1 and 3 and that 2 could’ve gone either way so Ken wasn’t particularly aggrieved about the SD loss in the rematch v Ali.

It’s a shame and unfair that Norton is referred to as a Paper Champ. All things being fair and equal, Norton clearly beat Ali in the rubber IMO - that Ali received a UD, I view as a robbery- and Ali himself admitted that he lost - as we’ve all heard. In truth, when it mattered, Norton should’ve been awarded the HW Title in the ring.

The Young fight was very close but I still see Ken as having edged it but it’s arguable - but who didn’t Young give major problems?

So not so much in the realms of if, but or maybes in terms of performances posted but rather in terms of official judgements, Norton could’ve had 2 out of 3 vs Ali, winning the title in the rubber against no less than Muhammad Ali, bearing Young and then gaining at least a draw if not a win v close to prime but allegedly injured Holmes when Norton was near 35 yo and obviously past prime.

Along with Norton’s excellent performances otherwise and besides, I would say quite the resume - not easily matched before even addressing the resumes of anyone else.

That’s just how I see Norton’s resume, I’d have to look a bit more closely at Fury’s opposition to make an equally informed and fair comment re Tyson’s resume.

Durability, heart and chin are premium assets, particularly when they allow a fighter to cover any “as and when” deficiencies in their game and permit them to still go on and prevail.

As far as I’ve seen along with his skills, Fury appears to possess those all important and uncommon attributes - certainly without same his resume would be that much less.

 

No, but it isn't massively far either way.

 

"B-but he b-beat Ali and Fury would lose to Ali soooo..... "

 

In terms of wins

Ali
Old Wlad
Wilder 3 (best I’ve seen Wilder look)
Wilder 2
Young (super close debatable “win” for Norton)
Whyte
Quarry Shot

the rest Clark, Bobick, Chisora, Cunningham all interchangeable

I lean Fury resume wise.

 

McCall is greater than Fury

 

You are right that Ali's performance was below his usual standards, but it shouldn't completely undermine or discredit Norton's win. Many great victories can be criticized similarly, but the fighters are usually still given credit for them. Your list of the best five wins at HW in September 2021 consisted of Frazier-Ali, Liston-Patterson, Foreman-Frazier, and Ali-Liston. Your mention of Ali-Liston is interesting because it too has some of the problems in common with Ali-Norton. You know better than me that Liston wasn't anywhere close to 100% in Ali-Liston I. Ali used every trick in the book to make Liston and the media underestimate him to make Liston train less hard for the fight. Liston had reportedly prepared for a three-round fight. Ali was always stylistically a puzzle for Liston, just as Norton was for Ali.
On top of that, the shoulder injury he suffered was proven authentic by multiple doctors, as you have posted many times before. I'm not saying that Norton's win over Ali is better or at the same level as Ali's win over Liston, but that they are still at least distantly comparable and give some perspective. Of course, Ali winning against Liston was the more significant upset since Sonny hadn't been defeated since the Marshall fight and was perceived as an unstoppable H2H monster. The new consensus should also be noted since it opens new possibilities for Liston's age. Ali doesn't get discredited for his win over Liston that much, but Norton gets all the shade.

Alex Haley's interview with Ali sheds light on how Ali schemed and prepared against Liston, but you have most likely read it before.

The quotes from Futch were insightful, and I hadn't heard them before. I trust Futch more than myself, so I might have to change some of my opinions.

You could also criticize Ali's first win over Frazier since Ali clinched so much, and Frazier wasn't ever the same after FOTC. The point is that Norton's win should be listed among some of these great wins, and he should be given the credit he deserves. I had a surprisingly hard time finding the betting odds for Ali-Norton I. Finally, I found a source that said Norton was a 5-1 underdog, which is a big upset. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Source: https://i.gyazo.com/c24961b8bb892b8b908a198a6802527e.png

I agree this version of Ali loses to FOTC Frazier, maybe to other iterations of Frazier, and maybe to Foreman. In my original statement, I said that Norton's win over Ali ARGUABLY outweighs Fury's resume. I meant that it is possible to make that case for him, not that it is some definite truth, but I should obviously have written it more clearly.