BETTER WIN: Andre Ward vs Chad Dawson or Pacquiao vs De La Hoya?

I thought Roach was doing that?

I think we have two main sides: the ones that over-hype things like it is some Act of God that he wins and the other that totally trash it.

So where does Freddie Roach's opinion in all this matter to you...Valid or Not?

****

We can debate all we want but in the end, what Pac has done from where he started to where he is now, that is what is truly the most impressive part. He's done very well with beating the odds.

 

Top Contender?
Dawson was LH Champion. Seen as a Prime Top Tier Fighter.
But I still don't like the fact that Dawson had to come down in weight. I can't give Ward full credit for that other than strategy points. If he would have done this at 175, Yes, brilliant.

 

how was it not brilliant? even if you are saying that oscar was ****, pac followed a brilliant game plan. he boxed and avoided being hit by oscar when everyone thought that even one solid shot would spell doom for pacquiao. everyone is on their breath thinking that one shot from oscar would spell the difference. remember that at that time, we don't know how pac, coming from 2 divisions down, would handle punches from guys at WW or above.

pac boxed and chopped oscar down little by little until he was ready for the taking by mid rounds. you can discredit pac's effort that night but he followed roach's gameplan by the book.

 

Better win was Ward V Dawson by far.

 

by this virtue, floyd's win over cotto is **** since pac had already stopped cotto 3 years earlier. and david diaz was at 135 at the time when 135 is weak. at least diaz has a valid win over santa maria who was robbed in a fight against the lineal at 135 of that time in casa.

 

But he was fighting a fighter that had nothing in the tank...Mentally and Physically.

Forget what everyone was thinking and look at what was taking place inside Oscar's Mind and Body.

Here is a quick story: I saw a movie called "The Three Stooges Meet Hercules" and in that movie, the The Three Stooges and their friend accidentally turned on a time machine and it sent them back in time to ancient times. The one guy who was with the Three Stooges had to fight in the arena against Gladiators, Lions, etc.

So what did he do to make sure he won? He drugged the opponents. The Lion was given a handful of sleeping pills and the Guy won handily. Now to the audience, this was extremely impressive. But to the Stooges and their Buddy, not so much because they knew that the Lion was drugged.

 

This. You stinking ****.

 

by this virtue, you can also say this to dawson. what is happening to his body and mind? never mind ward's effort in that fight. never mind pac's effort of not getting hit and boxing oscar until he was ready for the taking.

 

Somewhat but still a bit different:

Dawson was still in his prime, younger, and able to rehydrate even though something didn't look right...which yes, coming down in weight may have had negative effects.

Oscar however was Past his prime already, and decided to go on a diet and training regimen that would guarantee him to make weight. So much so, that he stripped himself of muscle weight to walk around at the actual weight class thus ruining his body's health equilibrium.

What was Oscar's weight on fight-night compared to the division weight?
And what was Dawson's ?

The rumored sparring sessions for both are interesting. Oscar getting his ass kicked and Dawson being knocked down/out.

Either way, fighters need to learn from each other and stop making the same mistakes.

 

every fighter is different and not everyone responds the same. so what if dawson was able to do what bhop did when he went down in weight to challenge oscar? bhop made the weight easily and his size let him bully oscar.

so we now come back to who is the better fighter overall and/or who risked more? was it dawson who went down 7 pounds? was it ward who met dawson at 168? was it oscar who went down 3 pounds from his last fight from 150 to 147? was it pac who went up 2 full divisions after just one fight at 135?

 

Was Hopkins able to re-hydrate back up in weight a certain amount?

And the effects showed that it hurt Oscar.

Dawson was better at that point because he was younger, prime, and LH Champ while Oscar was past his prime.

Pac was blowing up in weight by fight-night even as a LW and was weighing what compared to Oscar on fight-night?

They already talked about Pac moving up to 140 after Diaz because of weight issues.




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This is the correct answer. The Pacquiao vs De La Hoya fight was Oscar's last, and he was already a shell of his former self. Dawson is in his prime, and the undisputed LHW champion of the world. The fight was also Dawson's challenge and idea to come down to meet Ward at SMW...I love how this keeps getting overlooked in favor of bashing Andre.

Why don't everyone quit making excuses, for why Dawson could have possibly lost so badly, and maybe just except that Andre Ward really is that good. I mean it could be worse, SOG could have Amir Khan's personality :deal

 

bhop agreed to meet oscar at 158 but weighed 156 and still stopped oscar. everyone is different. we don't even exactly know if the exact reason why oscar and dawson lost is just because of weight or because pac and ward executed their gameplan well. maybe it's a combination of both but to say that pac and ward's effort have no effect on those fights, that's a disservice to what they have done.

oscar for the pac fight chose to be light as a matter of strategy since they already knew that they have an inherent size and stregth advantage. they thought that matching pac's speed is the better option to beat pac.

and no, they were not talking of moving-up to 140 because of weight issues. pac had just moved-up from 130 to 135 at that time. they were talking about moving to 140 to fight hatton. the 147 fight against oscar was supposed to be a one-time deal.

 

Well we do know that Oscar was past it as a fighter.

As far as weight, ah, Yeah, I think we can since he looked sickly and could barely move.

Did you see his fight in his prime against Shane Mosley who is naturally bigger, stronger than Pac and quite fast himself ?
And you are telling me that this version of Oscar is even close to that?

At least he was healthy at 154 in recent years prior to that fight.

Dawson: I don't know. But something looked off. At least he was young which helps the odds in your favor of manipulating weight better as well as having the ability to rehydrate back up unlike Oscar.

The thing with Oscar against Forbes and Pac is that I'm not sure what his actual weight was on fight-night against Forbes while we do know what his weight was against Pac...and he made a big deal about his dieting down to be at that weight.
I still can't believe he thought it was going to be healthy to actually be at the division weight by fight-time. Even Roach laughed about it.

Going back to Oscar and weight: His body was malnourished for what an elite athlete needs and he was doing that throughout training. It took its toll.




Roach on Pac's weight:


Start at 1:10

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odVuMSrMtF0[/ame]



FORGOT ABOUT THAT....ROACH MENTIONS ACTIVITY LEVELS. Basically, Oscar is a part-time fighter. Can you say the same for Dawson?




Time(s): 5:30....and....8:00 (on)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbKml_g3zKg[/ame]


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Ward had the better win in my opinion...but I think PAC's win over Cotto was overall a better win the Ward's win over Bad Chad.