Bigger one punch power? Shavers vs Tyson

Have you ever been punched? You don't forget how hard someone hit you. Especially if it is for 15 rounds.

 

What about each fight tells you how hard someone hit another guy? There is no measuring device next to the ring that lights up like one of those arcade games. The only guys who knows how hard he was hit is the guy getting punched and the puncher.

 

There are obvious variables to consider when judging the power of a fighter's shots, which is why you have to look over a range of fights and come to a general conclusion based on an amassing of evidence. Tyson's shots had crippling effects on enough opponents for us to see that he hit extremely hard, regardless of the odd off night. Shavers had way more instances where his shots didn't do the sort of damage expected of a puncher of his supposed calibre. It's getting into the realms of ridiculousness to suggest that every one of Shavers's best shots was having its power reduced by some mitigating circumstances. After a certain point you just have to accept that he didn't hit as hard as a fighter repeatedly having more success in this regard, like Tyson.

Uh, no. A tangible result is a knockdown or knockout. That's something anyone can pass judgement on.

 

Neither fighter can know with any degree of accuracy how hard they're being hit unless they're taking bodyshots. Even then there's a whole lot of margin for error.

The best measurement for power resides in its effect. That's something fighters aren't always in the best position to judge.

Yes I have. I used to compete in Muay Thai as an amatuer. I couldn't with any degree of accuracy tell you who hit me the hardest, though I'd assume it's the guy who gave me an eight count and had me out on my feet.

 

You can repeat it as much as you like. If I have grounds for disagreeing with you then the onus is on you to convince me, which you've failed to do.

Regarding the Rahman fight, for the last time show me where Tyson landed a flush overhand right to Lennox's jaw with full extension similar enough to the one that Rahman landed to make a comparison meaningful. To my knowledge he never did. Therefore there is no comparison to make. There is in both the Holmes fights, which is why I thought you brought it up in the first place.

 

I agree that the effect is a good way to measure who hit the hardest. But Shavers did have Ali in trouble for a little there during their fight. A fighter can get hit harder than with a punch that knocked them out. Remember that the punches that do the most damage are the ones that you don't see coming. You can see a really hard punching coming and brace for it and not get put down but a punch that is a little less hard and you don't see it coming can have a fighter out for the count.

 

I haven't seen all these Shavers punches that had no effect, but then I don't expect every punch to have a crippling effect either. I mean, Tyson hit plenty of guys plenty of times too, so I don't see what the difference is.
I look at guys like Ribalta, Tillis, Tucker, Biggs ..... they soaked up A LOT of Tyson's shots before showing any real "crippling effect" ..... and I don't think those 4 were the pinnacle of heavyweight durability, career-wise.

Even Frank Bruno - who went to pieces from a Bonecrusher Smith left hook, and later did the same from a Lennox Lewis left hook - but he tended to be more worn down by accumulation of Tyson's best punches.
Does that mean Tyson cannot compare to Smith and Lewis ?

Knockdowns are knockdowns, they are not necessarily the result of greater power than the shots that don't knock a man down.

Anyway, Shavers' knockdown of Ron Lyle was absolutely BRUTAL.

 

Like when George Foreman said that Lou Saverese hit him harder than anyone else?

 

Clearly Muhammad Ali was the biggest puncher Foreman faced, because he rocked him almost every time he hit him with a clean right hand, and knocked him out in 8 rounds.

Ron Lyle would be #2 hardest hitter on Foreman's record, he had Foreman down twice.

Jimmy Young is #3, the third hardest hitter Foreman faced.

 

We are and were talking Shavers. What Foreman says is irrelevant, we all know how much crap he talks. Shavers is supported across the board.

 

What? No. The onus is on both of us to arrive at the truth. I have no obligation to change your thinking. I have an obligation to what I believe to be true.

This goes back to you comparing who each fighter fought. And their fight results.

So now youre telling me that your argument comes with a contingency, that guys like Tyson get a pass when they don't throw their best punches? So Tyson gets a pass because he didn't "land a flush overhand right" on Lewis? And Shavers? **** him? He gets no passes or anything?

Thats naive. Oh and https://streamable.com/6b94

 

Did that hit Lewis ?
Tyson's hands still a bit fast there for my eyes perhaps, but that looks like he missed Lewis's head but jarred Lewis by sneaking it in under the arm, and their arms clashed as Lewis was pulling his punch back, and Lewis clinched quickly.
Nice defense from Lewis there.

 

I suppose that's possible, but the point is if you're being knocked out by a shot then you're unable to register its true force. It might be a shot that happens to hit you just right, or it might be a shot so hard that it scrambled your brains beyond the point of no return. I think with Tyson, enough fighters were put down by a wide enough range of shots in a wide enough range of circumstances to come to the conclusion that he was just punching them really hard.

 

Like I said, you can't just judge on single fights. You have to take a wide enough sample size in order to extract general patterns. The pattern that Tyson set was that, more often than not, if he hit you you were going down and staying down. Shavers's pattern was that if he hit you you might get knocked down but you were unlikely to be so badly hurt as to be counted out. That's the difference in power. There are always going to be anomalous fights, but Tyson's body of work is enough to cancel those out in the overall trend of things.

When I mention knockdowns I'm not talking flash knockdowns obviously. They're pretty easy to differentiate from the real thing.

I agree with you there (see, I can give Shavers credit when I feel it's due ).

 

Ali and Holmes were known for being rampant BSers. Can we safely disregard them as well?