Bigger one punch power? Shavers vs Tyson

It contradicts nothing. I've already made clear that I don't base punching power on any one thing but a combination of factors, of which resume plays its part. The more highly ranked a fighter is the more likely they are to be superior in all the categories we rate in a boxer, including chin, grit, composure, conditioning; to a certain degree these qualities are a requisite to make it anywhere near the top in the first place. While there might be the odd iron chinned unstoppable journeyman lurking down in the bum circuit somewhere the majority are merely below average and a stoppage of them proves very little indeed. Likewise, there has and continues to be the odd fragile jawed fighter who makes it on skills alone, but these guys generally expose their weakness at some point anyway. Again, a knockout of them needs to be taken in its proper context.

But we seem to be muddying the issue here. I'm not comparing either man's ability to land on opponents but simply the effect their best shots had on them. You can talk about Shavers's higher knockout tally if you like, but considering we have no footage of those fights and the fact that many of those fighters were smaller than Shavers I don't really see how that serves his case here.

The question, "Who hit you the hardest?" may be to the point but you can't in any way trust the answer. It's certainly no basis to pin an argument on when it contradicts so much of what actually took place in the ring.

Hang on. What happened to Shavers being so sloppy and unskilled that he could hardly land on anyone worth a damn? Now he has no trouble catching Ali and Holmes and hurting them. So the question then becomes: why couldn't he stop them?

Forgive me if I find that a rather backward way of looking at things. But we're getting into the realms of abstraction here. Power punchers are and always will be judged on their ability to deliver knockouts, not on their ability to make their opponents say nice things about them afterwards. Look at any puncher excepting Shavers and you'll see this to be true. And accuracy was never much of a problem for Shavers anyway, truth to tell. He'd regularly catch guys flush. He didn't always catch guys on the chin, but then neither did Tyson, and he still knocked them out.

 

When did I say Shavers was so sloppy and unskilled he could hardly land on anyone worth a damn? I have been saying Shavers didn't have the skills to back up his power.

Shavers couldn't knock out Holmes or Ali simply because they had better skills than his power could carry him. His power only got him so far. Holmes and Ali had skills, chin, and heart that saved them. This is Earnie Shavers we're talking about here. Not the GOAT.

In all of your posts there is a lingering implication every time that power=ring success. I can't stress enough how much power doesn't make a fighter good. Foreman got knocked down and beaten by Jimmy Young lets not forget. Would you call Jimmy Young a puncher?

 

Yes, among other differences. Shavers struggled to hit them near as often as a Tyson.

 

I'm the kind of guy who gives the benefit of the doubt to people. Especially in this case, where so many opponents have said the same thing. It can't be a conspiracy, right?

And how do their testimonies contradict what happened in the ring? To me, Shavers knockdown of Holmes was better than Tysons first knockdown. Holmes was in better shape, moving, winning the fight, and Shavers punch came out of nowhere and dropped him. Tyson did tons of damage to Holmes leading up to that knockdown, and Holmes was standing still, and he was an older, more beat up version of the guy Shavers knocked down.

 

He landed on lots of top fighters. His skills weren't nearly as crude as you want to make out.

Here's a HL vid of Shavers vs Ali.

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How many times does Shavers land flush on Ali? Quite a few I count.

Point is, Shavers had no trouble landing on Ali that night. There was no massive skill disparity on display.

My only expectation is that when power lands it should mean something. If it doesn't then it's a meaningless concept as far as boxing is concerned. You can talk about "raw power" as much as you like, but to have any relevance it needs to have a tangible and, to some degree, measurable effect that can be isolated from other contributing factors such as speed, accuracy, technique etc.

There is no expectation that power guarantees success. I've never stated that, nor do I believe I've implied it. You can quote me if you think I'm wrong.

I refer you to the Ali fight.

 

And Frazier's knockdown of a fresher, better and more mobile Ali was far better than anything Shavers did to him. So what does that prove?

 

That is a highlight video. What did you expect to see? No where have I said that Shavers was sloppy and unskilled. You keep saying that over and over. What I have been saying is that Shavers skills weren't as good as his power. Which is a fact. You can quote me at any point where I said Shavers was unskilled and sloppy.

That is 1977 Ali in there fighting who wasn't very hard to hit at that point in his career. Mike Tyson landed plenty of times without "hurting guys" as you say Shavers did. Look at the Smith, Green, and Tucker fights.

We have people who say Shavers hit them the hardest. We have 1 person who say Tyson hit them harder than Shavers.

 

Let's face, both Tyson and Shavers hit hard but they both built their reputations knocking out has-beens, bums and tomato cans.

 

Frazier has a stylistic advantage on Ali, and he was a much better fighter than Shavers.

 

Must have hit harder as well, by your criteria.

 

What criteria?

 

Ali was in better shape, moving, younger, less beat up. That's what you were praising Shavers for against Holmes, wasn't it?

 

But Frazier is better than Shavers.
Shavers is not better than Tyson.

 

Yes, but your point was about how hard both men hit Holmes.

 

Ali had been stunned and beat up when Frazier downed him. It was the 15th round, very end of a high intensity fight. When Shavers downed Holmes, it was half way through the fight. And Shavers wasn't bringing that Frazier FOTC type level heat.

In fact, the old Ali fought the same Shavers that the young Holmes fought! Shavers fought them back to back.

The circumstances of this example are way too different.