Bigger upset at the time: Rahman-Lewis or Tarver-Jones?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020.


Which was the bigger upset?

  1. Rahman over Lewis

  2. Tarver over Jones

  3. Neither was bigger

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  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Which of these fights was considered to be the biggest upset at the time of the fight: Hasim Rahman beating Lennox Lewis or Antonio Tarver beating Roy Jones?
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    #1
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  2. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Tarver over Jones. Lewis it seemed always had an air of vulnerability to him against any good heavyweight, despite his greatness, and heavyweight is literally the '1 punch' division. Meanwhile, lots of people seemed to think Jones won the first and only looked 'non-indestructible' due to his weight cut, and that he would return to form, clown Tarver and then likely retire - so that has my vote.
     
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
    #2
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  3. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thank you @roughdiamond. Nothing more to add.

    I'd say that maybe on a MAINSTREAM level it was Lewis-Rachman, because dumb casuals only know the heavyweights.

    But WITHIN the sport? Easily Jones-Tarver.
     
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
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  4. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I suspect that there is going to be a big divide between people who actually followed boxing closely back then and those who did not. I'll repeat what I wrote previously in the other thread.

    Rahman's win was a much, much, much bigger upset, and there's no comparison. It's not even close.

    Lewis was a 20-1 favorite over Rahman. Jones was only a 4-1 favorite in the Tarver rematch.

    The huge gap between the odds of these fights reflects what most informed viewers recognized at the time. While the abrupt, devastating fashion in which Tarver dispatched Jones was shocking, Tarver's win itself was only a moderately big upset. Tarver was a dangerous, highly-skilled, highly-regarded contender with an impressive pedigree. He'd avenged his only professional loss, against one of the other top contenders of that era, by stoppage. He was in the Ring top 10 in his division 6 years in a row by the time of the Jones rematch, and the top contender for two of them. He had just given Roy an extremely competitive fight.

    On the other hand, Hasim Rahman was a fringe contender who was most well known for being punched through the commentator's table by Oleg Maskaev (who, as fate would have it, was himself punched out the ring by Kirk Johnson in an early ko loss soon thereafter). Nobody gave Rahman a ghost of a chance against Lewis, who had not lost in 7 years despite fighting a long list of very powerful opponents. It was instantly regarded as one of the biggest boxing upsets of all time and still remains so.
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, the level Jones was operating at was so much higher than Lewis', and at that point Jones had NO KNOWN WEAKNESSES. He was seen as the super man of boxing and wasn't close to being comprehensively beaten in his career.

    The man beat an elite HW... and Tarver was gonna beat him? Yeah, bigger upset.
     
    George Crowcroft, May 13, 2020
    George Crowcroft, May 13, 2020
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  6. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Yeah, it seemed that people were even tagging Roy as a top, top ATG (some top 10 level, insanely enough) before the smashing loss to Tarver and the subsequent, extremely sudden career crash. I don't really care about betting odds as they are only as 'accurate' as the fighters/event is popular.
     
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
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  7. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's hard to understate how highly Roy was regarded at the time.

    After the Ruiz win, there were SERIOUS discussion about Jones over Robinson as the GOAT. Jones haters might say that's silly in retrospect, but at the time it rang true.

    Lennox Lewis forever had questions around his chin after the McCall fight. Roy was thought to have a very solid chin.
     
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
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  8. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    LOL!
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    #8
  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Betting odds had Canelo beating Kovalev, and everyone who knew boxing said Kovalev was gonna win.

    Odds just aren't as reliable as you'd think.
     
    George Crowcroft, May 13, 2020
    George Crowcroft, May 13, 2020
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  10. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Let's like you and Mark Ant are alone. You're in good company.
     
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    #10
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  11. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Did you follow the sport back then?
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    #11
  12. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Translation: "I didn't get the responses I wanted, and I'm hurt, so I'll just type "LOL"
     
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
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  13. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Diamond has more knowledge in his nut sack than you have.

    You and Mark Ant are a bunch of nobodies.
     
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    Xplosive, May 13, 2020
    #13
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  14. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I like George and respect his opinions but this is a question of historical fact, and you guys are all way off on this one.
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    mrkoolkevin, May 13, 2020
    #14
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  15. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    No, and you know I didn't. I am repeating sentiments from both older posters here and older articles etc I have seen when researching Jones a long while back - basically, an informed, consensus view on which I then made my own judgement. What is funny is in other circumstances you would say other classic posters who 'lived through the era' were inherently biased when opposing your view, but it is flipped when you want to be 'right' apparently.

    I don't really understand why you are fixated on this topic and are trying to make it an argument. It isn't very interesting. Debate @Xplosive since it is his opinion and post that caused you to start this thread in the first place. Seems a bit passive aggressive in all honesty.
     
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
    roughdiamond, May 13, 2020
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