Why Leonard FELT Hagler was deteriorated enough to safely challenge him is irrelevant. The Mugabi performance, a heresay conversation over dinner with Marvin, or a visit to a palm reader didn't change the fact that Leonard was equally as deteriorated at that point and clearly the more disadvantaged. Marvin Was coming off a recent knockout victory of a solid prime #1 Challenger. Leonard's last fight was three years earlier, at a lower weight class, against a fringe level opponent and in a less than stellar performance. They were both close in age.. Ray was the one rising in weight. Ray was the one who retired due to an injury and had lived a less than healthy lifestyle over the previous five years. Hagler had been the more active of the two. Many including Dr. Ferdie Pacheco feared for Leonard's health. There was a VERY good reason why Leonard was a 3-1 underdog. Actually its ludicrous. He was beaten twice by a lesser opponent, and the reason both men rematched at a higher weight was because neither could make 160 anymore. Iran had lost 3 of his last 6 fights. Tommy fought smarter the second time around. This doesn't change the fact that he was well past prime, and incidentally so was Barkley by that point. Hearn's win over Hill was comparable to Hopkins victory over Pavlik. A great past prime performance but again, not an indicator of being anywhere near one's best. The agreed upon weight limit for Leonard vs Hearns II was 164... Not 154 as you questioned. And no 160 was no longer doable for Hearns either. And Leonard's weight for Lalonde was 165, not 168.. Hearns specifically turned down an offer for a third fight because he stated that he couldn't make the proposed weight.. Nothing complicated about that. Again, the highlighted comment makes what you're saying moot.. Hearns WAS quite far removed from his best and so was Leonard.. And this doesn't help the real agenda behind your argument which is to try and prove that Leonard was still fresh against Hagler. But your using a long ago heresay conversation that Hagler was " burned out" isn't? None of these things change that Leonard was equally or more so diminished. You seem to think that Leonard's reasoning behind fighting Hagler changes that fact, and it doesn't. I have no doubt that Leonard saw deterioration in Marvin and likely wouldn't have fought him if he hadn't. But the fact remains, that he was still rightfully the underdog between the two... Incidentally, do you think HAGLER was worried about facing Leonard? Do you not think he saw a man rising in weight and being retired for the better part of 5 years as a potentially easy cherry picked payday?
It's not irrelevant.Leonard was NOT as deteriorated as Hagler was at that point.All anyone has to do is watch the fight to see who looked far crisper.Plus Hagler,who had no idea that Leonard was going to challenge him,told him that he just didn't have it mentally anymore.Those 2 facts are not irrelevant.Hagler was the favorite because he was naturally bigger,was the still champ and was perceived at being active.But he'd had 2 fights in 2 1/2 years to Leonard's 1 in 3 years.Big difference.As far as the Mugabi fight is concerned,if Hagler didn't have a granite chin,he would have been ko'd as Mugabi landed early and often due to Hagler's deteriorated reflexes.And no,it's not ludicrous to claim Tommy wasn't that far removed from his prime in Leonard 2.Btw,how many years after Leonard 2 was the Hill fight?Two?As far as the weight issue in Leonard 2,you're absolutely correct in that one as Lenny was 160 and Tommy 162.But I never claimed Lenny was 168 for the LaLonde fight,as I wrote the limit was 168.But according to the Chicago Tribune,Feb 8,1991,Emanuel Steward said he could have gotten Hearns down in weight but Hearns was leaving him for Harold Smith.And just for the record,Tommy made the 168 limit against Olajide after the Leonard fight.It all boils down to 2 facts:1.Hagler was spent with the sport and told Leonard this just before he'd no idea Leonard was going to challenge him.2.Hagler was farther gone as one only has to look at the fight to see how sluggish he seemed and how much crisper Leonard seemed.As far as your last quote is concerned,how did Marvin feel it was a 'potentially easy cherry picked payday' when he was surprised to be challenged in the 1st place, and it took him several weeks to respond to the challenge?You were around at that time.Everyone, especially Hagler, was shocked when Leonard made the challenge.
what about what was head on the tape during round 6, is this also hearsay? Tim Ryan: "Sugar Ray said he was counting on the slowness of Hagler. He said he had lost alot of speed" translation: Sugar wanted him this way. He couldve simply challenged him when he brought him in the ring at Baltimore Civic Center (but chickened out instead) then there was the Howard fight where he again chickened out, saying "it wasn't there tonight" and his fans bought it hook line and sinker. biggest apologists in the world, forever making excuses for someone that shortchanged his fans.
Hagler was also completely outboxed by the Weaver triplets. That is FACT which means Leonard DID NOT achieve some great big miracle since the Weavers had already done this two weeks before the fight. How do I know? I was there watching it. and on the day the fighters arrived at Ceasars, there was Ray telling former Hagler foe "Thanks for softening him up for me buddy".
Jackson blitzing Norris with ridiculous ease in two, it was awesome to watch as well ! Norris was highly touted as the next budding star, and then POW ! He is left for a quivering wreck on the canvas in 2 !
naw, that was no upset as JJ was champ. u got to READ my favorite shipping boy! the title is BIGGER WIN time for this dog to learn some new tricks! btw, tell me again how u have me blocked! it's a killer rush for me to have u for sport
Millions watched that fight, and millions felt that Hagler actually won.. I personally didn't, as Ray outlanded him marginally, but the punch stats show that Hagler was actually the more active of the two, and threw more punches. They are hugely irrelevant for two reasons: 1. Hagler did not have to take the fight, and by doing so, you'd think his motivation would have been renewed going in the biggest paying fight of his life. Not Leonard's problem that it wasn't. 2. Leonard's taking notice of Hagler's deteriorated state, doesn't erase the problems that he had going on himself. If you're going to cut Leonard's retirement down to only THREE years, then sure.. No big difference. But this wasn't the reality.. Leonard had fought only once since February of 1982.. Hagler had seen no less than NINE fights within that same duration, and against world class opponents.. Leonard's only fight within that time frame was against a fringe opponent who decked him. Not exactly the kind of stuff that makes for a favorite. He was in the ring with a universally recognized #1 contender in his prime, yet pulled through to win by knockout. Leonard's last outing came three years earlier and was against a fringe contender who put him on the canvas and may have been the victim of an early stoppage. Leonard was so disgusted with his performance that he retired saying that " he didn't have it anymore." Sound familiar? because you're sure making waves about another fighter using the same line. Hearns was past it.. He was having difficulty keeping his weight down, and within a year prior to facing Leonard was KO'd by Barkley and struggled mightily against James Kinchen. Getting a second wind and scoring a big win over Hill, was comparable to Hopkins beating Pavlik or Foreman beating more, but no indication that these men were anywhere close to prime.. I don't care what Steward said. Hearns never again fought lower than 168, and him meeting olajide at that weight is irrelevant because Ray was never going to fight him at 168. They agreed to fight at or below 164 in their second meeting. When talk of a third match was raised, Hearns said that he couldn't make that weight any more and NEVER did again. So you think the whole argument boils down to: A. Hagler's lackluster performance in a fight that many viewers felt he won and B. A conversation that he had with Leonard about being mentally spent with boxing. And you really feel that all this overrides the irrefutible facts that Marvin was fighting a smaller man rising in weight who was nearly the same age, had fought only once in five years in a less than stellar performance against a weak opponent, and was coming back from a career ending injury along with a life style involving drug use and personal problems? If dinner time with Hagler along with leonard getting decked by what you call a "near prime Thomas Hearns" are your reasons for thinking that Leonard was better off, then I'm never going to convince you otherwise. I agree that Hagler was diminished and that Ray saw this as an opportunity, but you're only choosing to look at half the story.
Hey Magoo,back again,hope you're well. Ok, the fact that Hagler was the busier of the 2 isn't the issue. The issue is who was farther gone at that stage of their careers. Answer me this: who looked sharper in the fight?Who looked crisper,quicker,had sharper reflexes,faster in handpeed as well as on foot?To me, the answer is quite obvious.Hagler looked ancient whereas Leonard did not. Those 2 statements are not irrelevant. Up to that point,Hagler's motivation was to break Monzon's then record. But he was telling everyone around him that he was finished with the sport.If Hagler was still looking fresh and telling everyone he was up for the challenge of breaking Monzon's record,Leonard would never have challenged him in the 1st place,which you(along with everyone else) knows.If you remember correctly,Hagler pondered not even taking the fight as it took him over a month to respond.And he was able to get physically in shape as he was his usual spartan prep machine,but that doesn't take away from the fact that physically and mentally he was as done with the sport and as spent as one could be expected after having 66 profession fights,something unheard of in this era(Tommy,JC Chavez notwithstanding).And concerning Leonard's problems-are you referring to the marital discord(which Hagler was also undergoing) and the cocaine use?That doesn't take away from the fact he looked sharper than Marvin and was not nearly as shopworn.But he looked sharper against Hagler and later, Tommy, than he did against Kevin Howard.It looks to me like HE'S the one that needed the challenge to get motivated. As far as the Mugabi fight,your "pulled through to win by knockout" comment is quite telling, as Hagler looked old and slow against a now universally accepted inferior opponent. Hagler won due to his granite chin:in other words, a fellow he would have easily outboxed a few years before.And your comment referring to Leonard's not having it anymore:"sound familiar?Because you're sure making waves about another fighter using the same line," would have FAR more relevance if Leonard hadn't fought 6 more times after saying it. You got me on Tommy's weight issue: I stand corrected.Touche.But you can't deny that when Tommy and Lenny fought, they were still world class formidable fighters. And I'm not just looking at half the story. Leonard wasn't prime, but when they fought,he wasn't as shopworn and as past it at Hagler. Hagler told several people that he was done with the sport. It doesn't matter that many thought he won. He had appeared diminished since the Roldan fight a few years before and looked old and slow against a fresher opponent in Leonard.Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Fair. This debate has gone on long enough. I started a poll on the issue as inspired by our debate and at the moment it seems to be dead even.
Cheers:good.Whether I'm wrong or not, you're a class poster and always have been. I always look forward to read what you have to say when I'm on these boards.
Great pat on the back to a fellow poster ! Hey while I`m at it, I want to say that I truly enjoy all the debates,opinions and input from all of you guys...We all have our favorite`s and we will defend them to the death ! But, someone always comes on, and points out some solid viewpoints. That maybe I hadn`t looked at from that vantage point. And in the end, we are ALL boxing junkies ! It doesn`t get any better than this !!
That's what makes this place great and certainly helps me to kill time at work. Thanks for posting. :good