Biggest myth in Boxing

Nobody in Liston's position would be allowed to take a "personal decision" in these cirumstances. Tell yourself anything else you like about that second fight and you are unlikely to be more wrong than what you've got currently.

 

You are right.

He would also be easier to time.

There's no question that Liston was really hitting Ali. What else could he do? If the situation I see is the right one I mean?

In the sixth, read accounts of the fight always talk of Ali landing "at will", and the accounts hold on viewing. I think it is possible that he is waiting for the big shot, leaving himself open to shots and waiting for the one that will see him down, or at least nearly.

Liston was seen crying on his way into the ring. I think he got the news in the dressing room...no other way to do it if you think about it.

No rehersal (though Lisotn new years before that he would have to take a dive at some point, and told people just that) specific to that fight. It must be a difficult thing to get right (As the 2nd fight shows) and Liston is allowing himself to be hit, hoping to be legitimatley dropped.

Bell rings. Oh ****.

It's always fun with you Sal, whatever the topic.

 

The Gray and Palermo were both in desperate trouble by this time and facing serious, serious jail time. Though I think Palermo was a free man at this time he was sure on the Big List. Liston was a huge asset at those long odds. Enormous. In terms of cash money and a laundering asset he was probably worth millions.

Not connected. Owned. Lock stock and barrel.

I think this scenario is literally as likely as aliens making him do it. I'm serious.

 

That's right. There is no school for falling over properly, no lessons on taking a dive. The LaMotta story reads EXACTLY like this, he was expected to take a dive and couldn't, though possibly for different reasons. Had his purse witheld and then paid (same as Liston).

It also explains the absolutley ludicrous dive in the 2nd fight. "Just go down the first time you get hit this time".

There are three possibilities

1) Liston didn't take a dive and tried to cheat his way to victory.

2) Liston's cornerman wasn't in on the dive (likley) and played the trick independantly.

3) It was an accident.

Regardless of dive/no dive, I favour 3. 1 is the most unlikely to me. These things just aren't plausible during a world title fight.

He wasn't. None of the punhces he landed was particularly dangerous though they were reasonabley hard. I've already covered this with Sal.

If this is so then it is interesting that he stops head hunting and concentrates on the body. He spends the early rounds head hunting the most elusive fighter he's ever faced - when it is more normal for him to attack the body - then switches his tactics when his opponent is finally more vulnerable to the original tactic.

He would certainly have to throw punhces though. I can't accept missed punches (and all the really big head punches were misseed) as proof of attempting to KO the opponent.

 

No bother; it doesn't help that all mob guys have ten million nick names.

Feeling the heat is one of the many reasons they would look to sever their links at this point, but it's a small one really. An absolutley desperate need to cash in on any assets that they have would be the main one.

Well pulling your punches is more likely to cause injury to the cuff than full blooded blows; it's an unatural movement and not one he has trained all his life for - Liston did have shoulder problems going in though, in fact i'm pretty sure he was taking injections.

As I said; it's more likely he would injure himself making an unnatural movement than a natural one.

Regardless, Liston came up pulling a plough on his fathers scrub, not unlike a horse. The scars are in the post mortem report. Unlikley that something like swelling in the tissue of the shoulder would keep him from his work.

 

I would guess that he had some serious help...but I agree, the level of contempt he is held in by some is ludicrous.

Where is HomicidalHank these days?