Overall bad picks on his part, though it could be argued Norton had a better heart than Mike, and beat a far better opponent (in Ali...****, broke his jaw!) than Mike ever dreamed of.
Yes. Yes it is. Whilst he was inactive and taking soft touch title defences against LHWs whilst ducking Harry Wills? Ok. By people who, for the most part, would do the same to Dempsey. Yet Dempsey managed to weasel out of fighting Wills and Langford. And most people fought everyone in Tyson's, Wlad's and Lewis's era. There's obviously exceptions but there's also exceptions in Dempsey's. How's this Much of the title opponents Dempsey fought were past prime light heavyweights who had done nothing at heavyweight to deserve a shot. Then he was absolutely schooled by a light heavyweight, twice. Older inexperienced? Pulev, Povetkin, Byrd, Peter, Haye, Ibragimov and Chagaev were all at the top of division when Wlad fought them. He never got KOed by his best opponents at his best. Sanders imo wouldn't have beaten Wlad of 2007-2012. And it's Sanders probably wasn't his best opponent any way. So he used his physical attributes of reach and strength to dominate? Kinda like how Dempsey used his physical attributes of speed and power to dominate? Wlad's Clinches were as legal as Ali's, as legal as Holmes's, Johnson's and Lewis's. It's not like he's the first to do it. So because he could swing around his top contenders like a sock with stones in you immediately assume foul play? Wlad was a freak of nature in terms of power, size, speed and strength. Even with other referees he'd have been able to by time in a clinch. There were situations around both KOs. Don't get me wrong it's his fault and I'm not making excuses for him but do you really see McCall beating the Lewis that smashed either Golota of Rahman himself? I don't. And he clearly ranked ahead of Bowe and dominated more than him. Holyfield wasn't dominate either, he lost a fair few fights and was run close by an old Foreman, Holmes and Micheal Moorer. Lewis thoroughly beat him twice imo.
This is the only part I don't agree with. I didn't think Lewis looked good in either fight imo, and that's one of the main reasons I don't rate LL as high as Holy overall. How many times did prime Holyfield get knocked out by a crappy fighter? Never.
I agree that Lewis didn't look his best but I still fought he won both by a clear enough margin to say that he clearly proved himself better than that version of Holyfield. And whilst I agree Holyfield wasn't KOd by someone like McCall. Lewis at his peak wouldn't be either
I agree, Steward Lewis beats McCall. But what about Hasim? The version of Holy that Lewis beat enough (never consummately imo) was soooo past his prime it's ridiculous. If Bowe knocked the crap out of him, Lewis should have done the same. Both had outrageous right hands. That said, you're one of my favorite members here so I want to agree with you
Wasn't he filming Oceans 11? Either way it's very unprofessional. He should be taking every fight seriously, something like Wlad, Louis and Holmes did. But not everyone has that level of dedication. Holyfield included. I agree that Bowe definitely did better. And Lewis should have done better but I think the main difference is that Lewis and Manny knew that Lewis wouldn't likely be leaving with the belts after a fire fight with Holyfield. As Holyfield has a very underrated left hook and excellent counter punching abilities (which is what both Rahman and McCall used to KO Lewis). They knew they had to fight sensible. Whereas Bowe just threw caution to the wind and had a tear up with him. As he knew he could take Holyfield's punches. Thanks. Your one of my favourite guys here as well.
Dempsey made light of them but I don’t think Gibbons, carpentier were that bad. Not if Greb and Tunney can be considered great fighters of that time. Dempsey did sign to meet Wills and he absolutely demolished Firpo, a guy that Wills could not convincingly beat. Nobody smoked Dempsey as champion and laid him out for keeps. just because McCall, Rahman, Douglas, Sanders And Brewster are responsible for huge upsets against Great fighters won’t make them great fighters unless they can replicate what they did, which they could not. And there is the rub. Look at the guys they lost to and tell me Dempsey can’t beat them. To be better than Douglas or Brewster or McCall or Rahman you only have to beat the guys they lost to. So no matter how great you think Tyson, Lewis, Klitschko are it is a black mark that they could ever lose in their primes to those guys. It has to be. And all the dominant champions who did not flunk such fights deserve to go ahead of them. well he signed to fight Wills and he still beat men who beat Langford who was very much an old timer by the time Dempsey could have defended against him. Perhaps like Holyfield taking on old Larry. well I don’t think that is true. Mavrovik didn’t beat anybody much to deserve a shot at Lewis. Botha didn’t. Tucker didn’t. Golotas best result was being disqualified twice. Who did Pulev beat? And don’t get me started on Tyson’s guys. Tubbs, Holmes, Thomas, Bruno And Spinks were years short of world level experience. True. But we never saw him stretched out for the count either. yes. List the previous best wins for those guys. What a sorry list of ineptitude and irrelevance. Did they really climb the ratings meeting men higher rated than they were or did they beat one fringe guy dropping out of the ring top ten then remain undefeated against inconsequential losers waiting for a title shot? he absolutely did. If he was good enough to win a world title afterwards and before then he absolutely got knocked out at his best. As unforgiven has said any fighter he loses to an underdog must be partially over rated. True. From time to time, in an emergency great fighters will grab and hold but only until a referee breaks them. It’s never the actual gameplan nor are they in cahoots with the officials to ensure this is allowed. There is film to prove that he was knocked out in his peak. Spark out. In title fights. And yet Bowe and Lewis had all the advantages against Holyfield didn’t they? I mean, we are talking If absolute greatness here and I can’t help thinking the very best champions have to have been closer to unbeatable than this. Losing or struggling with smaller handicapped opponents who themselves were never actually fully dominant themselves has to be marked against them. Consider Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano losing or struggling to a much smaller guy in their championship days without finding a way to knock them out?
For all his advantages, Lewis never consummately beat Holyfield. Just my opinion...and we're talking about a Holy who'd lost some serious fights before then. Lewis never established a marked dominance over Holy the way Bowe did. That's simply how I saw it, and that takes away from my overall rating of LL (despite the fact he was most certainly, a top eight ATG imo). Just a bit under Holy (a 4 time world champion who did what was considered almost as impossible as what Douglas did...beating the crap out of Tyson not once, but twice). I'm sure I'll hear arguments (not necessarily from you, @choklab ) re: the second Holy Mike fight. Either way, Holy DOMINATED Mike even in that second fight.
Absolutely. Stuff like this counts. If one champion deserves to be rated above another then we have to nitpick and have them scrutinised like this. Don’t get me wrong. They are all great fighters though.
No of course you don't. But he had other contenders he could've been fighting. Actual HWs Yeah, coz he didn't fight anyone who could. I'm not even saying Wills would but we'd have a better idea if he'd actually fought him. I'd definitely back Sanders, Rahman and Douglas to beat Dempsey. 1. I will. 2. They pass the eye test for skill and power. More than most Dempsey's opposition. Pulev's best wins, Chisora, H Fury, Peter, Ustinov, Dimitrenko, Thompson Byrd's best wins, Vitali, Tua. Say no more. Better HW résumé than Dempsey himself has. Peter's best wins, Toney twice, McCline, Maskaev Povetkin's best wins, Price, Hammer, Takam, Chagaev, Huck, Chambers, Duhaupas, Wach, Perez, Byrd. Pov clearly fought every top contender in his era and a few fringe contenders afterwards. Haye's best wins, Valuev, Harrison, Chisora, Ruiz Ibragimov's best wins, Briggs, Holyfield, Whitaker Chagaev's best wins, Valuev, Ruiz, Skelton, Pienatta, Oquendo So not too shabby. That logic doesn't work. Leon Spinks beat Ali who was clearly past it, yet Ali managed to win the title back from Spinks. By that Logic we should hold Ali to that loss as we would to a 67 Ali, because he was good enough to win the title. Lewis wasn't half the fighter without Manny as he was with him. Well there isn't as the closest version to peak that McCall fought was the one in 95. Where Lewis beat the daylights out of him in one of the weirdest fights I've ever seen. If Joe Louis and Marciano had someone to fight who was as good as Holyfield was against Bowe I doubt they'd find a way to knock them out. The best mini guy that the pair of them fought was Ezzard Charles and the best version of him both failed to stop.
well Firpo, Willard, Sharkey and Bill Brennan were certainly heavyweights. I agree. I would also have liked for Lewis to fight Riddick Bowe. but would you back the men who beat Sanders, Rahman and McCall to beat Dempsey. I don’t think so. Did either Klitschko beat a great champion between them? Pulev was a 20-0 greenhorn who had not fought anyone. He was facing a champion of 65 fights. Pulev had not yet faced H Fury, or Peter. Typically Wlad selected challengers before they had properly matured. Byrd was 35 years old and ripe for the taking. And that’s his best win? Peter has not beat anyone like that when they first fought. Peter was 24-0, had not fought anyone with a real pulse and was facing a champion who had 20 more fights experience under his belt. Good matchmaking if you ask me. you are including a lot of fighters that Povetkin fought after Klitschko fought him. But yes Povetkin was a good opponent, albeit one who was dreadfully fouled against because of Wlads outrageous holding and pushing down on him as soon as he got close enough. Haye was an ok win, but it’s no showcase is it? Haye was just 4 fights in the division. yeah Ibragimov was another 22 fight novice facing a 55 fight champion . His only win of note was a decision over a 44 year old Holyfield. And what a classic fight it was when he met Klitschko... Chagaev had not yet fought pienatta or Oquendo but he had beat Valuev and Ruiz. Hardly a Resume is it? yes, you have me there. Leon became champion because Ali was bad enough to lose to him. But the fact Ali lost to a huge underdog shows his prowess as a champion had become overrated. He was probably favourite to win the rematch. against Charles, Louis was a comebacking champion rather than a defending champion at the time. In relation to Lewis and Bowes size differential to Evander Holyfield, Marciano was not bigger than Charles.
Who's going to break the news to Eddie Hearn and Joshua, he is not on anybody's list!!! Joshua actually said a while ago he had already achieved more than Lewis's whole career. That's how delusional he is.
