Billy Conn As A Heavyweight - The 70's - 90's

Bob Pastor was short-lived top 10 smallish heavyweight contender during the 'bum of the month' era. If that's your definition of world class heavyweight, we have nothing else to talk about.

Joe Grimm was down probably over a hundred times in his career. To call his chin anything but weak would be big mistake. He knew how to hold and fight very awkward, making it difficult to finish him, that's not chin. If you really have a chin, you don't go down often or at all, in the first place. It isn't rocket science.

Conn would probably whip that mediocre Jerry Quarry's ass, I'll give you that. He'd outbox that very primitive George Chuvalo to a decision also. But that's just two of the more mediocre contenders of that era. Ellis would at least hold Conn even, and most probably would win a decision or stop him late. Conn's boxing abilities have been vastly overated. Same as Gene Tunney's for that matter. Neither was really proven at heavyweight, too few fights and too few quality hw opponents.

 

And while we are speaking of it, who was ahead on the scorecards after 8 rounds, Conn or Pastor? Who was outboxing whom, before he ran out of gas?

 

If you have a contemporary acount I would be interested to read it.

 

This is the thing that modern fighters are often criticized for. Best or one of the best in a weak era. Pastor, with his cautious, defensive style, could look good against slow primitive heavyweights of the "monthly club". But how do you evaluate his abilities if you haven't even got a report of his fight with Conn?

Weak chin and questionable chin are two different things. Conn's chin was questionable.

He might establish a placement in 1970's Top 10 for a short time, but he wouldn't stay there for long, a couple of losses (unless he decides to pad his record and avoid dangerous opponents), and he's getting thrown out. He's not getting a chance to win the title, not with Frazier, Ali or Foreman. Norton, despite his mediocrity, may become a hard obstacle in his path also, with his cautious awkward boxing.

 

Here is the 1970s picture we are putting Conn into.

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I would expect Conn to be able to beat most of these fighters and probably enjoy a similar or better ranking over the same period.




1968 Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
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5. Sonny Liston
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7. Leotis Martin
8. Manuel Ramos
9. Alvin (Blue) Lewis
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1969 Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
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4. Leotis Martin
5. Mac Foster
6. Sonny Liston
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8. Al Jones
9. Henry Cooper
10. Gregorio Manuel Peralta

1970 Joe Frazier, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
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5. Mac Foster
6. Henry Cooper
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8. Sonny Liston
9. Jose Ibar Urtain
10. Jose Luis Garcia

1971 Joe Frazier, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
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3. George Foreman
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5. Mac Foster
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8. Jose Luis Garcia
9. Jack Bodell
10. Joe Bugner

1972 Joe Frazier, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
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4. Ron Lyle
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6. Ernie Terrell
7. Jose Roman
8. Joe Bugner
9. Ken Norton
10. Jose Luis Garcia

1973 George Foreman, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ken Norton
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5. Ron Lyle
6. Earnie Shavers
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8. Joe Bugner
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10. Chuck Wepner

1974 Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ron Lyle
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5. Joe Bugner
6. Ken Norton
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8. Chuck Wepner
9. Henry Clark
10. Larry Middleton

 

If you are familiar with Conn's career, you should be aware that he usually was cautious in the early rounds, but by mind-rounds he was becoming more aggressive. This didn't change, when he was facing heavyweights. This is unlike Bob Pastor or Chris Byrd. This trait would play against him in the era of big hard-hitting heavyweights. Sorry, but he's not staying in Top 10 for long, and certainly not winning the title.

 

Look at the post above.

Jerry Quarry you (not me) picked him to beat was in the top 10 for six years (probably eight in practice).

By your own predictions Conn would be in the top 10 for several years.

I am not sold on the big heavyweight argument either. I think that he could get to a title fight without fighting anybody over 200 lbs who was ranked.

 

Read one of my previous posts where I said:

"He might establish a placement in 1970's Top 10 for a short time, but he wouldn't stay there for long, a couple of losses (unless he decides to pad his record and avoid dangerous opponents)"

 

Wasn't it more common that fighters that matured at LHW moved up in Louis's day? The only one I can think of who did this in the 60's is Foster, and that didn't really work out.

Conn, like Charles, had their best years at LHW. Was this also the case for any other contenders back then? It could be said of Braddock as well, of course. And in the 50's there was Moore.

But after that it wasn't until Michael Spinks that a fighter that made his name at LHW broke through the HW ranks.

Ps. I know that Patterson, Jones and Ellis started out in lower divisions, but they spent their best (mature) years at HW.

 

The irony is that Conn could very well have done better if he'd moved up among today's superheavies than if he had made the move in the 70's. Jones showed that modern tools (steroids?) makes it possible to put on a lot of muscle in a short time without losing too much mobility and speed.

If this had been possible 30-40 years ago Foster might have been one scary dude at HW.

 

Light heavyweights not moving upto heavyweights is a relativley recent phenomenon.

It started when light heavyweight purses became suficient to keep one in a lavish lifestyle.

Middleweights not moving up to heavyweight has a slightly longer tradition but it was still a novel idea when it came along.

 

Though Conn's weight was given as 174 he actually weighed 169 for the first fight with Louis.Louis ,sensitive he was perceived as the bigger guy came in just under the 200lbs mark at 1991/2lbs,he attributed his struggle getting under the 200lbs mark to his difficulty in catching Conn.So Louis actually had a 30lbs edge in the weights.