Billy Conn versus Jim Jeffries/Jack Johnson/Jack Dempsey/Max Baer 15 rounds

i could see billy popping jeffries for 12 or 15 rounds.don't know about baer though as billy wouldn't have anything to hurt maxie with.
billy wouldn't beat l'il arthur and i have my doubts with dempsey too.

 

Can't see Conn weathering the hooks to the body from either Jeff or Dempsey for very long, particularly from the Mauler (although Jeffries was perfectly capable of a fast start). Agree with others that Johnson would decision him. Billy could pull a Loughran on Maxie though. During their sparring session, Max left himself wide open, Conn drew blood, Baer stifled a curse, then tried to tear Billy's head off, but couldn't manage to connect. Max is clearly the opponent Conn would have the best shot at.

 

Thanks Janitor.

Book arrived today and I am eager to start it.

Out of interest have you seen all the footage from the Lang fight? The 12th and final round is on YouTube but surfing the net I found references to it being filmed from the 6th round onwards.

 

I have not seen the entire fight, but it might well be the most informative film, when it comes to reconstructing Fitz's style.

Obviously he is shot but at least the film is fairly clear.

You can tell more about many old timers styles watching them sparr for war bonds in their 50s, than you can from the prime footage.

 

That's exactly why I asked. Have you only seen the 12th then?

It's such clear footage (the final round) that I imagined any other rounds would've been a good way of seeing Fitz throw punches, as it's infinitely clearer (and judging by the report I read, more eventful in terms of exchanges) than the Corbett fight.

 

Over 15 I'd favor Conn over Jeffries and Baer. I'd favor Johnson to win a clear decision in a competitive fight. I think Dempsey would either win by wide UD or by stoppage, he'd force Conn to retreat and fight defensively throughout. Conn would be good enough to grab a few rounds boxing on the back-foot, but Dempsey's pressure, inside work and man-handling would wear on him and over the course of the rounds he'd either take fewer and fewer risks in order to survive to the finish line, or he'd get stopped. I think that if Conn could out-box Louis for 12 rounds he could do it to Baer for 15, who wasn't nearly the fighter Louis was and who didn't have too many advantages over Louis that could help him against Conn, aside from a longer reach. His feet were too slow, and his punches were too telegraphed and he wouldn't be smart enough to trap Conn.

 

Based on all the footage I've seen of Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey and Baer I'd say Conn has his best chances against Jeffries and Baer. Both were big strong and duyrable and certainly had the power to take Billy out but Their lack of movement and speed could enable Conn to outbox them to a decision. Note that I said could, not would. Loughran boxed Baer silly and Conn was as good as Tommy or nearly so. Braddock was also able to outbox Baer and Conn was much faster of hand and foot than Jim was. If both of these men could outbox Baer then I don't see why Billy couldn't either. Same for Jeffries as well. Let's face it, Big Jim was no speed demon. He was an attrition fighter. Tough and strong but a fast boxer like Billy could turn the trick if he doesn't get stupid like he did against Louis. Johnson and Dempsey pose too many problems I think. One was a big strong albeit very clever boxer who could trap a fighter and hurt him and the other was a take no prisoner attacking power puncher. Too many weapons from both men for Conn. Both were fast when they wanted to be and both could take you out fast as well. Baer and Jeffries would be the best chance for Conn. Johnson and Dempsey? Forget it.

 

Have you ever seen a prime Jeffries move? He's quick like a cat, and rather agile. He would have no problem catching up to Conn, and Conn's pitter pat power punches would not bother Jeffries at all.

Jeffreis was likely ahead or even to a 33 year old in shape Jim Corbett, who was more of an out fighter than Conn was. Billy's best stuff was in and out combinations. He get caught to the body or head and that would be all she wrote.

I think Conn's best shot here is vs. an unmotivated Max Bear or vs an out of shape Jack Johnson, who had some issues with speedy boxers.

 

No. Sooner or later all those men would have kayoed Conn inside those 15 rounds.

 

Which actual fight footage shows Jeffries to be "quick as a cat" ?

On film in combat Jeffries looks rather plodding,against Ruhlin ,he looks the slower man imo.
Of course he may have been quicker and agile in other fights ,but we have never actually seen it.
Your interpretation of the first Corbett fight is" optimistic " ,to say the least.
Please do not quote Pollack at me, he hasn't seen the fight either.

Corbett was inferior to Conn as a boxer ,imo, yet he went 23 rds with Jeffries ,though he had not had an actual fight in 2 years ,nor won one in 6 years.
Corbett was bigger than Conn, but I doubt he was more durable.
Form line suggests that Conn may keep one step ahead of Jeffries over 20 rds ,and could possibly be favourite over 15 rds.
Jeffries was an excellent body puncher ,and that might be the key to weakening Conn,and slowing him down for a late coup de grace,but in Conn, Jeffries would be facing the fastest man he had met,and one in his prime



Would you call Joe Jeanette a" speedy boxer" ? Tommy Burns? George Gardner?
Ed Martin? Hank Griffin?

Because they have all been described as such.

 

Mcvey, I am going to try to keep it clean and reply with detail.
which footage? You should view Jeffries full 1901 training clips, which you tube does not fully show. Watch it some time. It includes sparring, jump rope work, medicine ball throwing and more. Maybe one day I'll upload the whole thing for you.

Maybe in 1910 when he came back, but Ali looked like a slow man vs Holmes. Read, and educate yourself. Many fighters, including Corbett and Sullivan said Jeffreis was fast. Sullivan called Jeffries the fastest big man he ever saw.

Again, did you ever read a quality round by round? I doubt it. The internet can be dangerous when it passes down quotes. The NY Times has an excellent round by round, which each round getting several sentences. If you read it, you will see the fight was even or slightly in Jeffries favor just before the KO. You might be surpried that Jeffries made Corbett miss a few times. So much for being slow... As I have said before, Jeffries had a pretty good defense. Pollak who researched a ton of stuff concurs.

Corbett was a better heavy than Conn. Again, they fought differently. Corbett used speed and mobility on the outside, had a duck and jab method and could clinch. Conn was more of an in and out combinations type of fighter, who did not clinch well. Corbett's style is harder to catch. Conn style had to get in and out of the danger zone, and took more risks....which means he's more likely to get caught.

Please explain how you came to this conclusion? Conn faster than Choynski, or Corbett? Please provide me direct quotes from anyone who saw them both. Even a very old Choynski ( Who was perhaps 40 or beyond by then ) who can be seen sparring with Jeffreis in 1910 looked very swift.

I think Burns shows good hand speed on film. I think Jeanette was pretty quick as well according to news reads, though his film is limited to a sparring session when he's 60+. Ed Martin looks pretty fast on film sparring with Gus Ruhlin. When I see the film, and read the news reads which say so and so was pretty quick, that's enough to convince me.

We never get anywhere in these conversations. As I have said many times before, I think part of the gridlock is because you have not seen or in some cases read the amount of news paper stuff that I have.

 

M ,I asked you what actual fight footage you have seen of Jeffries that shows him to be quick as a cat ? You did not answer,because there is none.

Ive seen all the you tube footage of Jeffries.

Ive read many accounts of the first Jeffries Corbett fight ,none say that Jeffries was ahead at the time of the stoppage ,in fact most say Corbett held an unassailable lead .Jeffries own corner told him he had to ko Corbett or lose the fight.
The Durango Democrst states Corbet was skating it.

I did not say Jeffries was slow,I said in fight footage he looks rather plodding, making Corbett miss a few times proves what?
I dare say a drunk,sodden Sullivan, made Corbett miss on occasion.

You said" cat like quick" ,I just challenged the description.
I beleive a prime Conn was faster than a 33 year old Corbett, who had not fought in 2 years ,or a 42 year old Choynsky who had not fought in 4 years.

And there is actual fight footage to show how fast Conn was.

As to Conn being more likely to being caught ,he was kod only twice both times by ATG puncher Louis ,the first time after being ahead on points ,and the second when he was all washed up .Two ko losses in 77 fights .Corbett was kod 3 times in 22 VERIFIABLE fights
I would pick Louis to ko Corbett too.
Sullivan called Jeffries the fastest big man he ever saw,he was likely the only one,too !
Sullivan was dead in 1918.
How many 220lbs heavies did he see?
Come to that, how many champs and contenders?
Willard would have been the last Champ Sullivan saw,and he was not present at either the Johnson ,or Moran fights.

Eddie Futch described Conn's speed as dazzling ,and declared him a superior boxer to Ali.
I mentioned Burns ,Jeanette ,etc because they are accepted as fast boxers,all were beaten by Johnson whom, you said had issues with that type of boxer.

I dont think we should monopolise this thread as it isn't primarily about Jeffries or Johnson, but The Pittsburgh Kid.
ps Jeanette versus Carpentier is available and I have seen it .