BJJ is played out.

The thing about BJJ is that it will reign supreme in a controlled environment & one on one situations as long as the opponent knows nothing about the art.

On the flip side, BJJ is easier to learn and become successful at without the years of experience and athleticism required for wrestling and boxing. Modern MMA fighters are picking up BJJ easier then they are striking/wrestling, the amount of submissions has gone down in the UFC. Also, agree with the TS. The Pride rules almost made it into a different style of MMA.

Now on the street, anything goes, which is why this debate is stupid. The street = multiple opponents, grabbing balls/eye gouging, weapons etc.

 

I'll agree about athleticism part but it does require a lot of experience and it is NOT easier to learn.

 

I dont think anybody would pull guard in a street fight,if there is a gang,its better to run,no art would beat a lot of oponents unless they were really pussies

 

I just noticed that I said half guard when I meant to say side mount.

 

there's actual fanboys who claim that they would take people down and choke them out.

 

I think Muay Thai would be pretty effective in a street fight....get the clinch and beat them down. Most people would never ever break that hold.

 

That isn't pulling guard dipship.

I have taken somebody down and choked them out, it worked pretty ****ing well.

 

certain techniques wont work so well in a streetfight.

but remember the gracies have made a name for themselves fighting in no rules matches.

its hollywood **** to think that one guy can simply take out multiple opponents, it can happen but more often than not you will get a beatdown.

avoiding that sort of situation will always prove to yield better results.

 

OMG, we have an ULTIMATE FIGHTER among our ranks!

Tell us more street fighting stories, sensei.

 

so you think the random guy on the street knows how to defend an armbar?

the guy on the street is more clueless than the guys royce was fighting, many of those guys were trained fighters, pro fighters even. at least in ufc 1&2.... he basically had his way with them.

on the street the guys would never know what to do to defend the submissions, next thing they know they would be in extreme pain or getting choked out.:yikes

 

My apologies for taking so long to reply, been a bit busy to write out a detailed response, some of which may be needed for a second post (hopefully not). I'll try and respond by paragraph.

Well, it depends. I can't say for certain because I'm neither an instructor for the military nor in the special forces in the military or any Law Enforcement agency. I have taught martial arts classes and self-defense, but other then that, I've been a student of martial arts my entire life (well, since I was 4) and hopefully will be for the remainder of it.

But, if I had to guess based off of what I know from speaking with my instructor (who is a 7th degree BJJ Black Belt...you can count, probably, on your fingers how many there are of those in the world), Julio Fernandez, and also having friends and a relative of a friend who has gone through advanced military training is that the understanding of brazilian jiu jitsu principles and it's techniques are absolutely vital in what they do. Is it the same thing that your average Joe/Jane is going to learn in their classes? Probably not, because they likely won't be confronted with someone who is actively trying to kill them. However, if you take BJJ as a means of self-defense, you'll learn far more then it just being shown in an MMA match. It's entire basis is the functionality of real world self defense.

This goes to the heart that shows, without a doubt, that you've never drilled BJJ with any legitimate instructor whatsoever. If you had, you, likely, would never have said anything you just said. (If not, most...save for a sentence or two) What makes BJJ among the most effective (and, for all we know, the most effective) individual martial arts in the world is the principle of randori. Randori, which translates to "Live Training" which was coined by Kano, the founder of Judo, is absolutely essential in BJJ training. Without it, it'd be another Tae Kwon Do. When you drill a technique, you're doing so in a safe environment, but you're really trying to apply the technique to someone, just like they're really trying to stop you. If we're practicing a choke, say...a brabo choke...and you and I are partners, I'm really going to try and choke you. A technique that, realistically, can be death, I'm going to try and apply to you. And in turn, you're really going to have to defend. Now that principle of training applies to all techniques found in BJJ schools. This also teaches one to deal with the effects of duress in real world situations and applying these techniques, which can be life saving, under extreme duress. Something worth noting is severely lacking in the overwhelming majority of martial arts systems. It is absolutely essential.

Now, here one could make the pseudo-argument, "well, dirty tactics will trump all." Yes, dirty tactics are a part of a real life threatening situation, but most self-defense situations are not life threatening. They're certainly endangering, but not where one would be in real mortal peril. And, it's not as if only the person who is untrained can apply these dirty tactics. And, in BJJ, you train to defend this and respond to someone attempting to use them against you. This is where small joint manipulation comes into play. If I can break your fingers in a matter of seconds...your punches are going to be as useless as a water gun in a war zone. The trained individual is always going to be at an enormous advantage, and I can't stress that enough.

Again, goes to randori. You're right, you can't...for the most part. This is where something like Krav Maga comes into play. And I'm talking about REAL Krav Maga as taught by the Iranian Military. Those guys train to apply absolutely lethal techniques in pretty much every conceivable scenario that is likely for them to encounter. And they can do this because they've come up with training methods that deal with absolutely everything, and it's really quite astonishing. It is, by far, the most effectivce self-defense system ever invented. And I do mean by far.

Let me put it into perspective. Let's say some average gang banger pulls a gun on someone who has extensive training in real Krav Maga. He literally has a loaded gun in the face of the other person and all he has to do is pull the trigger and he's dead. You know who is in the greatest mortal danger in this situation? The person holding the gun. Unless he pulls the trigger immediately, and I do mean immediately, the person schooled in Krav Maga will have that gun out of their hands and either disassembled as to be useless or it'll be pointed the other way faster then the other person will even be able to understand just what has happened. This is all, assuming, that he does absolutely nothing until the gun is already pulled. Krav Maga teaches you how to deal with multiple assailants and lethal force and everything on the spectrum. In short, they're on par with Navy S.E.A.L.S and the like in terms of just how quick they can **** your world up if given even the slightest of openings. This is all possible because they developed systems of training that allowed them to practice things of this nature in a relatively safe environment.

Well, that's the thing. It does not go for any martial art. Not at all. My Black Belt in TKD? When it comes to teaching me to defend myself in the real world...it's about as useful as a paper weight. It means absolutely nothing. It gives a false sense of security. There are martial arts that are absolutely amazing at teaching the average person how to defend themselves well and then there are those out there that do an absolutely horrid job of this, sometimes to the point of having a negative effect.

Things that have shown to be truly effective: BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, very specific forms of Karate/TKD (Asian oriented), Judo, and very few others that actually teach you to deal with real life situations and how to apply the techniques under duress. It's vastly different applying a life saving technique when your life is actually threatened then when you're applying it in a setting where all you do is go through the motions of how it's done. I'd rather have something that is 10x less lethal but I can apply with confidence then something that I can't really execute in a safe (relative term, again) setting that is supposedly the "death touch" or whatever nonsense you want to label "x" ass kicking move.

Royce Gracie, of course, can get his ass kicked. But it'll never, and I do mean never, happen against someone who is untrained unless it's some circumstance where he was dibiliated before he could attempt to defend himself. What his BJJ allowed him to do was give him the best chance of not only survival but of success against other highly trained and skilled opponents, often significantly larger and physically stronger, then he. Will it work 100% of the time? Probably not, but it gave him the best chance of coming out on top despite not being the strongest or the largest.

And I agree. Not everyone who practices BJJ is that good. Absolutely. But, you'd be shocked how damn effective even a Blue Belt is at applying these techniques against someone who has no idea of what he's doing. Even a very high level white belt will be able to maneuver very effectively. And a black belt? Forget it. You'll be tied into a pretzel. He'll literally be able to manipulate your body and weight relative to his to do pretty much anything he wants. These techniques are that significant and the training really does allow you do to that.

Clearly. Try it, you'll be surprised.

Now that's a long post, and I'm sure I've left out some things, probably vital, too, but I'll try and respond in a timely manner.

Hope that answers at least most of your questions.

Edit - My apologies. Krav Maga was originally an Israeli Military tactic. Either way...avoid those guys.

 

This is something that I realize that I failed to respond to in my initial reply, so forgive me there.

Going to my initial response I note of martial arts that truly have effectiveness in real world situations. And for the most part it is because they're actually drilled. Why is boxing effective? Because people really get to box. They actually get to do it.

Now, of all the martial arts that are effective, boxing being one, we can say that one is more effective, generally speaking, then another. In this case, we can absolutely say, the majority of the time, BJJ is more effective then just boxing. Without a doubt. If you put a boxing expert on one side and a BJJ expert on the other, I'm taking the BJJ expert every single time. Boxing is effective, but only for a narrow range of possible scenarios.

Now, what most boxing fanatics will say is that it's all you need and they'll use some astonishly bad reasoning for this. One might say to them, well...what if someone tries to take you down? What will you do then? They'll often respond that, "They won't get to! They'll be knocked out before they could!" This is remarkably stupid and ignorant of reality. If that were even remotely true, then boxing would be the one form of fighting taught worldwide. But it's not. Where boxing is effective it's very effective. But it only is effective in x number of situations. If you change it in the slightest, then the majority of boxing technique is thrown out the window. A 120 pound boxing champion is not going to be able to defend himself from a 300 pound human monster. Realistically speaking, it's simply not going to happen. He simply won't be able to defend himself properly, the techniques of boxing don't allow him to be able to respond appropraitely in this situation. Now, a 120 pound BJJ expert will absolutely be able to defend himself far better then any boxer because the size and strength difference, while still a factor, is not a deciding one.

So, your use of "actual fighting" is just a misnomer at best and you really have a bad view of what actual fighting is. It's not boxing. Not even remotely close.

And I'm not saying it's just BJJ. But, BJJ gives you pretty much the greatest chance of success against an attacker (the potential range of attackers and situations, which include size/weight/strength ranges and varying situations of danger) in a greater number of situations.

 

or you could do it to them.. your point is???