Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

So, who was the top 10 on that date, in your oppinion?

 

Giving Bill Lang credit for KO'ing Fitz is like giving Hector Camacho credit for stopping Ray Leonard, or Berbick for beating Ali. Keep matters in perspective. Fitz was not shot - he was past shot at that point.

 

True. And he still came far closer to beating Lang than either of those two greats did.

Incidentally though, appollack, i am interested to know when you think Fitz actually peaked as a fighter. I am thinking that he may have been at his best, even before he won the world title.

 

I wonder who the 13 fighters that Fitz beat in 1899 were, and how many of these were KOs or decision wins (or NDs).

http://www.yournewspaperarchive.com...true&src=search&currentResult=4&currentPage=0

 

Watching the film of the Fitzimmons/Lang bout makes me wonder how Bob would've dealt with some of the more modern fighters/styles. Of course Fitz was a shell of his former self in that fight but what I noticed is that style of fighting that Fitzimmons employed as well as many others from his time did seemed to make him vulnerable to a sharp overhand right Against another fighter of similar style Fitz may have been nearly unbeatable. But what about against a fighter who excels at the modern style. Say a Ray Robinson or a Hagler or Monzon or at LHW against a Foster or Tunney or Charles or Moore. Men who were taught to keep the elbows in and the hands up and particularly the head down as opposed to the older style of hands low, leaning back and the head straight up. Two different styles. Could an outstanding practitioner of the old style like Fitzimmons prevail over an outstanding practitioner of the modern style like Ray Robinson? Or would Robinson expose the inherent flaws in Fitz's style of fighting...or vice versa for that matter. This is a question that haunts me. Not the relative merits of a fighter like Fitz...There's no question the man was great. But how great when we try to compare him against great fighters that came later on...and compare thier styles. Assuming each man is very good at what he does, which "style" prevails?

 

In 1909

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Joe Jeanette
4. Sam McVea
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Tommy Burns
7. Al Kaufman
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
9. Sandy Ferguson
10. Mike Schreck

 

I think people still tend to overlook Bob Fitzsimmons as one of the hardest punchers of all the heavyweight champions.
He was rated as at least as good a puncher as Dempsey and Louis by those who saw them all. Despite only weighing 165 pounds.

 

What did Fitz weigh against Lang? I saw one report saying he weighed 160?!?!? Surely not at that stage of his life?

 

I have always said that if Bob Fitzsimmons had weighed 190lbs and had identicle career acomplishments, then the majority of posters on this site would rank him among their top 20 all time heavyweights.

I think by the same token he would absolutely be ranked higher as a finisher had he weighed as much as say Max Schmeling but had exactly the same firepower with no improvment to reflect his greater weight.

He basicaly gets penalised in both respects because he is so small that you have to pinch yourself when looking at what he did to his opponents.

 

Yaa. but he didn't. In fact some reports referred him closer to 156lb than 167lb. Wasn't it you who printed the report he really weighed under 160lb when he fought Corbett?


I mean that's just too damm small. Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon...even these men could not compete with the 190-220lb heavyweight contenders of their day.

 

Yes but if he beat the people he did, then surely it should be reflected in his ranking even if he had weighed 130lbs?

In lists ranking fighters head to head it might be necesary to factor size in because Fitz is potentialy up against guys like Lennox Lewis.

Lists ranking fighters on acomplishments or finishing ability should theoreticaly be size blind.

 

He weighed 158 against Corbett.

Think about that carefully and then tell us how good you think Fitz was.

And by the way, there was never ever a middleweight world champion other than Fitz and for that matter, there was never a light heavyweight champion except Burns, who was never really an undisputed or lineal champion.

 

Just to add a few notes and tidbits on some of the pretty anonymous Fitzsimmons KOs while he was middleweight champion. As usual, Fitz doesnt fail to astound me and increase my opinion on him as a fighter. I dont think we appreciate how lethal he was in his prime. Jim Hall is a throw away today. I never knew that Hall Fitzsimmons was the highest priced fight in history at the time! Hall must have been considered a bit better than we think of him today! And of course, I also never Knew (and this really beefs up his middleweight reign to be substantially better than any other previous champions reign), did anyone else know that the Joe Godfrey who was KOd twice in one round was probably the former world coloured champion?

Here are some of the articles on some of Fitz opponents which i recently read.


English Champion – Ted Pritchard – 1892

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/44074662?searchTerm=fitzsimmons&searchLimits=l-decade=189

Gregains
http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cd...-----en-Logical-20--21----ryan+sharkey-all---

Jim Hall fight of the Decade plus mentions of Rollins and the Heavyweight professor west who was kod in 1 round.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20F13FC3B5515738DDDA00894DB405B8385F0D3


Joe Godfrey is seen as two brief KO 1 s on Fitzsimmons record. I have never seen it suggested before that he was anything of a fighter. However, this article here seems to suggest that he was actually Old Chocolate George Godfrey. An entirely plausible scenario. Anyone know anything about this? If correct, it shows that Fitzsimmons’ middleweight reign is the most underated ever. Godfrey was past prime by this time, but he still had some decent wins and performances before and after the Fitzsimmons KOs. Surely this couldn’t be correct, could it.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=4046,280341&dq=joe+godfrey+fitzimmons&hl=en

Fitz' reign at middleweight was truly astonishing.

 

Cheers for all this, I have some thoughts I will add below.

If I remember correctly Hall came to America just after Fitzsimmons, and built up a fair respect from fight fans. So he was known and had beaten Fitz before, so it would have sold well.

The paper though is from the late '20s and not a primary source, so perhaps the author of that piece could be putting 'two and two together' or has remembered wrongly. I still don't entirely believe this.

Yep.