Bob Fitzsimmons vs. James J. Corbett (to be, or not to be blind)

You've listed several fighters with different attributes. Have to ask. Have you seen 'Unforgivable Blackness'? Youtube is an awesome tool, but check out Jack Johnson in decent, clear footage on your flatscreen. The guy was a physical specimen. I'm beginning to think that some of his hand movements/parrying were almost Aikido or Wing Chun like, but definitely not unskilled. I'm of the belief that he could've shut down the offense of a lot of great fighters and severly troubled if not beat them. As for the low guard. Look how small the gloves were. Kinda makes a peek-a-boo type defense useless. For me, definitely Jack Johnson and probably Fitz had skills that would transcend eras.

 

p.s. I'm not suggesting that Klitschko and Peter are Ali and Liston, but this gives an idea what a disservice ancient film does to fighters from a 100 years ago:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srrmj6eAFGc[/ame]

 

this doesn't fool me. these two still look leagues better than corbett and fitz.

look, the sport has evolved. the old guys were tougher by country mile. but the new guys are stronger (partly due to shorter fight lengths) and have better schooling via amateur programs and professional grooming (rather than being, say, thrown into battle royales to see who had "the hard stuff")...

 

Sure the sport has evolved. But Jack Johnson was a physical beast who makes most of these modern heavyweights (Peter, Kirk Johnson, Tubbs, etc.) look like slobs. So you don't think an athlete like Jack Johnson, under the tutelage of say Eddie Futch, could learn new techniques in a relatively short time?

 

The thing to remember about these guys and this era is that it was very much a transitional ear from the bareknuckle era and as such a lot of tactics from the bareknuckle era if not legal were certainly tacticly accepted such as wrestling and holding as such fighters techniques, training and physical make ups were very much a relfection of this. Not sure which books you have been reading but for a very detailed and even handed analysis of all of the guys mentioned Adam Pollacks biographies of them are excellent.

 

This.

If you ignore historical context and the very idea of historical progression, then you really have no place discussing fighters of different eras. There are many factors that go into his style, gloves, rounds, injury potential and yes, evolution of technique. But his worth as a pugilist can only be judged within his own era and against the fighters he fought.

 

How cum Fitzsimmons lost twice by KO when he was young if he was that great ?

But Langford was great , otherwise how could you explain his record considering his size and against whom he fought ?
From the crappy footage I've found of Langford on youtube , I can deduce nothing , especially as it was against nobodies (at least one of them and the other was far from good , but probably a decent opponent of his poor era)

 

From what I can understand of Fitz' early fights there are serious question marks over whether a lot of the fights were on the level during his time in Australia, according to Pollack's biography of him there are a lot of rumours he had to throw a couple to guarantee him future engagements.

From what I recall one of the losses was against Jim Hall and when the fought later in the states in a fight which was widely agreed as being on the level Fitz walked through him.

As for the youtube footage thing the issue for me is by it's very nature as the technology to film fights was in it's infancy it stands to reason that most of the footage that exists is of these guys at the tail ends of their careers. Now if the only footage we had of Ali was against Spinks Holmes and Berbick would we be able to conjure these images with the fleet footed lightning quick fighter the reports of the Williams, Liston and Patterson fights told us of.

 

And don't you think an athlete like Frank Bruno or Louis Monaco under the tutelage of say , Freddy Roach could learn new techniques in a relatively short time ?

 

Very good sir,
Welcome aboard:good