Bob Mee on Charley Burley

Burley must be counted as a force in any hypothetical in the WW and MW divisions. He cannot be overlooked. I see him as very live and dangerous to every WW -the Sugarmen, Gavilan, Hearns, all of them. There are no more than 4 or 5 that I'd favor. He would also be dangerous as a MW -and for that matter, LHWs-.

He may beat Monzon. He has the strength, the defensive (I like your use of the word "serpentine") and the kind of Dempsey like power surges and swivels that could nail the stand-up more offensive-minded Monzon.

 

It might actualy be your destiny to write a biography of Charlie Burley.

Lets face it nobody else will and if they wanted to they couldnt make it good.

 

Totally agree. I like the stylistic match up for Burley against Monzon...I know McGrain feels that Monzon is totally wrong for Burley however...I'm not sure I could think of the 4 or 5 welters to favor over Burley though...SRR for one, and I'd lean toward SRL and Gavilan (maybe but just barely)...but after that it gets hazy for me...I know for a fact Griffith, Rodriguez, and Hearns could possibly outpoint Burley, or at the very least give him a very hard fight...Because they are greats in their own right. But at this point, I feel Burley should be favored over each. Awhile back I tried to convince you (Stonehands) the Montreal Duran should be favored against Burley...and while that could occur (a Duran win), I think that I need to back off that remark! Burley should be favored in that hypothetical.

 

I have no problem with your post, but this statement stands out. I dissent. Here's why:

Burley was a stylistic nightmare for just about all styles except for master boxers with speed and innovation... Bivins, Charles, and probably Robinson. The size of the first two helped them along, but I don't think Burley's difficulty was due to their size. This guy knocked out Elmer Ray when he felt like it!

Monzon is very strong, relentless, and big, and I see that working against damn near everyone. But not Burley. Not Hagler either. These two share something that I see as a lilkey foil for Monzon's style -physical strength of their own, power, and unorthodoxy/complexity. They respond to speed. Monzon wasn't fast. And I don't see either of these magnificently conditioned athletes being "worn down" and surely not stopped.

 

Okay, but the problem that Monzon presents for Burley in your estimation is his liability from this corner. Accuracy and punch selection are wonderful qualities against orthodox fighters. The same was said about the great Alexis Arguello. But Arguello would never beat Pryor. I see Burley as Monzon's Pryor. Burley was part jazz and part calculus and a machine like Monzon risks short-circuiting. I am not confident that Monzon would time him or be able to predict where he will be because Burley was not only dizzying, he was a defensive marvel.

Monzon could be countered, but you had to have unusual defensive skill to do it. Burley's reach, speed, unorthodoxy and ability to evade shots from inches would allow him to counter any plodder.

I give you Monzon's durability. But a puncher always presents a problem -even for the iron chin... guys who don't go down are conscious of keeping it that way. Even Hagler knew when to hold on and lay off. Punchers present problems. (An example: Saturday night's fight with De La Hoya against Forbes. Had Forbes packed a whallop, it'd be a completely different fight.) Blackie Nelson said that Burley "moved like a cloud and punched like a fool." -and he'd feint the hell out of anyone.

As to Monzon's intimidation-resistance. Okay. Granted. But there is another intangible that I'd present as a counter to that. Burley was twice as good when he was facing arrogant guys. Moore was a braggart. And he hated Jack Chase. Monzon was even more arrogant than Moore, an unconscionable cad...

 

Burley and Gavilan is an absolutely great fight...alot would depend on Burley's overall workrate and punching accuracy against a very fast opponent. I believe Gavilan has the chin and the durability to take Burley's best (Robinson apparently went into counterpunching mode against Gavilan instead of trading with him)...The video of Burley fighting a heavier puncher in Smith may skewed my viewpoint of him and his workrate because of the weight disparity in that fight. after looking at films today, I'm changing my pick of Gavilan to Burley by close decision. Burley's jab and economical and unorthadox movement keeps him at the proper distance, (and Burley looks to be brilliant in this) to fire hard counterpunches... but if he elects to fight with Gavilan toe to toe, Gavilan just might outspeed him with his frenetic punching...I feel Burley could/would maintain his distance, but is his workrate enough?
I'm going with Burley now.

 

McGrain and Stonehands having really enjoyed your posts re Burley/Monzon (I was hoping you two would pick the topic up!)
I feel you both make very valid points. Monzon's size has to be taken into account (as with every fight) and his consistency...the man always dictated his fights. I don't see either man being intimidated by the other at all, but it is a facinating clash of personalities as well.
McGrain stated that Monzon had just amazing punch selection and unerring accuracy...this is true to a certain extent, but the question is, 'who has he fought that approaches teh unorthadox movement and defensive skill of a Charley Burley? I think no one...You could say Napoles would make a similar picture, but if you did, you would be mistaken! Napoles is an offensive fighter who advances, looking for countering opportunities while making the opponent miss...Napoles stays 'in the pocket' and in his fight with Monzon the size disparity was too great for Napoles. Briscoe, Valdez, and Benvenuti do not approach Burley from a defensive standpoint.
I feel Monzon's accuracy is not as effective as usual against Burley as opposed to the likes of the tough Briscoe and Valdez.
With that being said, I feel the fight would be waged with neither man being able to impose their style on the other...Burley would potshot from the outside, winning the early rounds with right hand leads, and being able to score with his jab while slipping Monzon's, Burley knew how to deal with size and strength, and opponents who hit harder than Carlos...Burley has seen everything Monzon brings before with the opponents he has shared a ring with, but has Monzon ever seen anything like Burley? Carlos would have his moments, but Monzon would not be as accurate as usual, he would attempt to increase his workrate, using his left to find and gauge his target, setting up the scoring right hand on occasion...and during the clinches, Monzon would attempt to drag the smaller Burley in...Rabbit punches, driving the shoulder up under teh chin, banging on his hips, elbows...you name it...Monzon would do business in there... and he would slow Burley down in the last half of the fight. Making it close...
I feel Burley would accomplish the better work when it is done...It's a close fight...But it's Burley by MD/SD

 

Excellent summation of this fight on your part as well (as always). Enjoyed reading it.