Bobo Olson and Jake LaMotta

What had earth had LaMotta done during Zales reign to reach the number one spot? I'm afraid I just don't see it based on his record.

 

More than Graziano.

 

For sure more than Graziano

 

LaMotta beat Williams one year after Williams last fight with Burley, which Williams won. In the interim he beat Archie Moore, Aaron Tiger Wade, Bert Lytell, and a young Satterfield. He lost to Moore (who outweigh him considerably), Lytell in a competetive fight, and Cerdan in a very close fight. Burley fought Nobodies after losing to Williams except for Wade and Lytell (who beat Burley more convincingly than he beat Williams). So no, at best Williams was no worse an opponent than Burley and frankly Williams was fighting much better opposition on top of the fact that he had beaten Burley.

Again, Sands didnt break into the ratings until WAY after LaMotta and given that he lost to a guy LaMotta had beaten who was Sands first truly world class opponent right before LaMotta challenged for the title the argument that him not getting a shot is evidence that LaMotta wasnt ducked defies logic. LaMotta had beenna contender for YEARS when Sands broke into the ratings. LaMotta got into the ratings fighting tough tough competition. Sands was fighting nobodies in Australia and not always winning. His first on foreign soil and against a world class opponent he lost. He didnt fight another contender until AFTER LaMotta won the title. One month after LaMotta beat Cerdan Sands beat Villemain. It wasnt until the following year that he fought another contender, Olson who was still only a fringe contender in early 1950. The fight was in Sands backyard and the decision in his favor was booed. By the time he came bavk to the USA and fought Olson again Jake had already lost the title but then one month after beating Olson Sands lost to novice Yolande Pompey by TKO. So the guy had four fights against world class competition against three fighters losing one, winning a questionable decision in another, and winning two outright. Yeah, he was really some overwhelming force in the division that everyone was ducking. Nevermind the fact that the title was in the USA and he spent all of one month here and lost to nobody immediately after left...

You can argue that Belloise, like LaMotta, and every other highly rated MW was ducked by Zale. Its true. Zale wasnt taking any chances. But how does that impact the case that LaMotta was ducked or illustrate LaMotta was just as guilty of ducking? Belloise was bumped out of contention by Robinson the month after LaMotta won the title. He was TKOd in 7 and after Robinson jumped through the NBAs hoops to eliminate Villemain LaMotta immediately fought Robinson.The mental gymnastics necessary to twist the facts as they happened into LaMotta avoiding the top guys is truly impressive. He rushed to fight a guy that was considered the baddest man on the planet, who had beaten Villemain and Belloise conclusively in three fights and somehow he was afraid to fight those guys... good luck getting that argument to stick.

 

The major point is that many guys who seemingly were worthy of title shots did not receive them. I don't see any reason to sympathize with LaMotta in particular and ignore the plight of Belloise Burley Marshall etc

 

As far as LaMotta ducking guys as champion he did a fairly good job but as a contender he missed out on a lot of good opponents. You feel he was under no obligation to face these guys but other fighters did a much better job of fighting their contemporaries

 

Its on youtube genius. And first hand neespaper reports are easily accessed online. As is common you are speaking from a position of ignorance and expect me to prove to you that Robinson deserved the official verdict of the officials which he won. Its not my job grab you by your pencil neck and shove your face 2 inches from the facts and hope beyond hope you will admit you misspoke. Ive seen you argue beyond reason too many times to waste my time. Believe what you want. Ignorance is bliss.

Correction. The greatest welterweight in history. Its funny but when Coley Welch tried to taunt LaMotta for fighting Robinson LaMotta answered: "I haven't picked any opponent in my life. In fact, I fought a couple of good light heavyweights last year, Jimmy Reeves and Nate Bolden. I kocked out Reeves and lost a split decision to Bolden. Sure I fought Ray Robinson whom I outweigh plenty, but Robinson was a great fighter, probably the best I ever faced, and I'll square Welch for that remark." He did too. He beat the top five rated Welch Welch 9 rounds to 1. My guess is neither you, nor any middleweight fighting today would criticize LaMotta to his face for fighting Ray Robinson.

No, we’ll stay on topic. You picked this fight and you arent going to worm out of it or deflect.

No they werent big names. Thats why they were fighting for peanuts on the chitlin circuit. From 1943 to 1945 Williams fought exactly two fights in venues where LaMotta had established himself as an attraction and lost one. Nobody was begging him to come back because he was this amazing fighter and this tremendous draw. But guess what happens in 1945? He fights in Detroit, Chicago four times, and New York and suddenly there is interest in a LaMotta match and guess who fights him... LaMotta. In 1943 in one of his few fights on the east coast Williams lost to Basora. LaMotta beat Basora in his very next fight. In 1945 Basora drew with Williams, then drew with Robinson and LaMotta knocked him out in his next fight. Facts are facts and while you may have a bug up your ass for this supposed murderers row outside of having round robins with each other where they won and lost multiple times they werent illustrating that they were head and shoulders above the guys that the money fighters like Robinson and LaMotta were beating. Sorry to burst that bubble. Burley gets all this play today but the question for these guys applies to him as well. If Burley was so great because he beat Williams and Williams was so great because he beat Burley its like an echo chamber. The argument that these guys were so much better than everyone else doesnt hold up when you see that they were splitting fights with the better fighters they fought. Sure, you can argue they were on par with them but then you cant really criticize Robinson and LaMotta for fightings guys just as good who happened to be bigger draws!

This is the argument of a child who doesnt understand the basics of this sport operates. LaMotta fights a guy who had previously beaten Williams and Burley but was scared to fight those guys... ok, wrap your head around that argument. Moore was entirely a west coast fighter until he left the division. Those guys went out there to fight because they were desperate. Jake wasnt. He didnt need to drive out to California and jump up a division to fight a fight that wouldnt have helped his standing one bit in order to make money. That criticism is laughable “Jake was scared or protected because he didnt travel 3000 miles to make less money fighting a bigger opponent in that guys hometown” yeah right.

 

You have a very hard time understanding dont you? Promoters. Promoters make fights. Promoters in that era operated out of geographic localities i.e. Cleveland, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York, etc. where were the promoters who could offer LaMotta the money to fight these guys? They werent established ANYWHERE LaMotta fought except for Marshall who had established himself in Cleveland. LaMotta had a following in Cleveland from his fights with Reeves and its close proximity to Detroit where he was wildly popular and guess what? He fought Marshall there after Marshall had beaten two of the three other guys you list.

The reverse is just as true. If LaMotta was fighting guys who beat these guys or these guys themselves then the argument that he was afraid of them falls apart. It has always been fairly well established and backed up by LaMotta himself that he fought these tough black fighters from 147 up because the white fighters wouldnt fight him. The argument about the war only holds up to 1945. It doesnt explain why for the next four years the title was tied up by Zale defending against two guys in four fights with padded records who either had their best wins over WWs or who were career welterweights. Cerdan didnt exactly set the division on fire despite his ridiculously high regard today plenty of people didnt think Cerdan beat Williams. LaMotta did. Cerdan got his ass handed to him by Raadik at the end of their fight. LaMotta beat Raadiks ass. Cerdan barely squeeked by Abrams who combined with his previous two bouts went just 2-5-1 in his final 8 fights of which Cerdan was one.

Jake was one of the most popular fighters in the world at that point. And had been rated #1 for most of the period from 1945 to 1949. He could also boast of being a draw in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, and New York. All locales that had and could support large outdoor fights. This became increasingly important as the IBC emerged as the dominant force in the sport because the IBC had ownership of large venues in all of those cities. Comparing champions ducking LaMotta as a #1 contender to LaMotta not fighting Burley isnt just apples and oranges, its apples and good year tires. LaMotta, as a contender rated higher than Burley was under no obligation to fight him. Furthermore Burley couldnt boast of being a draw, i.e. having the backing of anyone to even leverage that fight. By his own admission his largest purse was about the size of one of LaMottas smallest purses. And again, even in his own town, he couldnt headline without a supporting act. You cant even begin to draw that comparison. As I said, taking a big payday is fine by me but if you take six tuneups, the big payday against a lesser opponent, then double dip on that opponent, lose, rematch, then take another lesser opponent it stretches the amount of goodwill you can he afforded. Now you arent just trying to earn your money back, you are actively avoiding guys that had been shutout for years. If you want to lump Williams, Burley, or whoever in that group then feel free. It doesnt reflect poorly on Jake but on Zale and Graziano. Zale and Graziano both would gave done big enough numbers to make a defense against LaMotta bankable. Again, an appalling lack of understanding of the era or context for a guy to waste so much time discussing it.

There is ZERO evidence that a Zale-LaMotta fight wouldnt draw. As stated above, I have no problem with Zale going after a big bankroll after the war. But that's not what he was doing. He wasn't just saying "Im going to get this big purse and then Im going to defend against all of those guys that deserved it. See, not just Zale was was hurt by the war. So were those other guys. When Zale comes out and fights half a dozen no hopers, Graziano, more no hopers, Graziano no hopers, Graziano, and Cerdan over a period of 4 years there is a problem. There was a year, roughly, between Zale getting out of the service and each Graziano fight. He could have easily fought his gimme against Rocky, fought an actual deserving contender, and then gone back after Graziano again. That's if he really believed he would have had the title after fighting that contender. He didn't.

I focus on it within the context that its Graziano's sole win against a classy middleweight. If that's the best Graziano has to offer for evidence of his supposed greatness then comparisons to LaMotta are comical.

Well Graziano for one. Graziano was ordered to face LaMotta in an elimination prior to the first Zale fight but wouldn't go through with it. Cerdan was another. Likewise, in late 1947 he was asked by the NBA to fight LaMotta in an elimination. LaMotta agreed, Cerdan declined. This is the big difference here. Notice that the governing body requested these bouts be held. They never did so for Burley, Williams, et al. Nor was there ever any reputable independent promoter who tried to make those matches until Williams established a following in a town that had an interest in promoting LaMotta at which point LaMotta fought him. In 1942 Steve Belloise was scheduled to face LaMotta, LaMotta was the favorite in the fight and the day of the fight Belloise cancelled. The winner of the Coley Welch-Ossie Harris fight was scheduled to fight LaMotta. Welch won and then backed out. Harris took his place against LaMotta. LaMotta agreed to face Welch in his native New England about 6 months later and whipped him. I could go on but you seem to be pretty intent on furthering the reputation of guys like Cerdan, Graziano, and Belloise. Furthermore, if your contention is that these guys didn't leap frog LaMotta and avoid him you should be aware of the facts.

 

You can believe what you want but LaMotta fought a hellacious pace against stellar opposition fear years leading up to the Cerdan fight. In 1944 Jimmy Edgar told Eddie Futch that LaMotta was already past his prime, IN 1944! Edgar would know as well as anyone. He fought LaMotta and watched him fight numerous times. Most observers agreed that at least by 1947 LaMotta hadn't just lost a half step he simply wasn't the same fighter. In the films of his earlier fights you can see much more dynamic, attacking fighter. Faster of hand and foot, more aggressive, and throwing more punches. There is a reason why he was called the one man riot squad and the raging bull and those monikers don't jive with the fighter we see in his later career, which incidently is primarily from where his readily available films come from. Its only ignorant clowns like yourself that haven't seen the early LaMotta who battered his way into the rankings that thinks he was still at his best in the late 40s and early 50s. Furthermore, Joe LaMotta himself told me that Jake was done after he met Vikki. He spent more time in bed with her than he did training. He had no legs anymore and frankly that's above and beyond the fact that he was drinking and eating like a pig which required him to weaken himself by often taking off upwards of 30 pounds he gained between fights.

This is comical. What I find odd about all of the glory showered upon Cerdan is the complete disconnect with the facts regarding his career. Your post is a perfect example. He lost six years during the war? Uh no. Cerdan fought most of his fights during WW2. Furthermore we are talking about his credibility as a middleweight. Cerdan didn't even begin fighting as a middleweight until the end of the war. It had no impact on who he fought as a middleweight and why his resume is paper thin in that division. Furthermore, by the time Cerdan won the title Villemain had emerged as the leading middleweight in France. Cerdan wanted no part of him. Dauthille and Stock likewise had begun featuring in some of the biggest fights in France at the time. You don't see them on his record either. Why? Because he wasn't fighting the best middleweights in Europe. And this brings me to why people think he looks so great on film. Hes fighting complete nobodies. The best opponent we have him against on film (outside of LaMotta) is Tony Zale and its evident that Zale is completely shot in that in that fight and unable to defend himself. Sure he looks great in those fights and well he should. That's matchmaking 101. But lets not go overboard and pretend that because hes bowling over eurotrash that hes this monster because he never proved that and certainly not at middleweight.

If you care to take the evidence that those guys absolutely wanted no part of LaMotta and conflate that into them being cheese champs that's on you. The fact is both Graziano and Zale bold faced ducked LaMotta. Outright ducked him. Graziano did so on multiple occasions and I wont argue that he was a fraud. He was. He was the 1940s Arturo Gatti. Cerdan ducked LaMotta when it was convenient and only agreed to fight him when he was given a huge payoff to do so above and beyond his purse. When the fight was ordered before both were champs (something that never happened with Burley, Williams, etc) it was Cerdan who went the other way. LaMotta was fighting good tough fighters in three divisions, black or white, for years while guys like Graziano, Zale, and Cerdan were feasting on creampuffs. If that makes them cheese champions then so be it.

My suggestion to you would be to familiarize yourself with these events before you pop off next time. Save yourself the trouble.

 

If you believe that then why don't you list the guys who LaMotta didn't fight that fought more contenders than him. Go ahead. Then list the guys who got to fight the champions who fought more contenders to get there than him. Because what you will find is that LaMotta fought more contenders than Graziano, Zale, or Cerdan from 1941 to 1949 by a country mile. In fact Im going to guess he fought more than all three combined during that period. So begrudge him his title shot for what? Compile a list of someone like Burley or Williams and its going to look like this:

Burley:
Williams
Williams
Williams
Williams
Lytell
Williams
Lytell
Lytell
Lytell
Wade (who probably wasn't even rated consistently if at all but gets a lot of play from the BMR fanboys)
Wade
Wade
Wade
Wade
Cocoa Kid (who wasn't even a middleweight and wasn't rated consistently either but again, some think that despite his near 50 losses he was uncrowned champion)
Cocoa
Cocoa
Cocoa

Yeah, That's a lot of fights but guess what? Its four fighters, two of whom probably weren't rated and there were probably a handful of losses in there as well. Muddy waters no? Now this is just an estimation. It doesn't reflect either guys actual record but that's what your dealing with. Its a good example and why ranking those guys then and now is perilous in my opinion. Its a circular argument. A was great because he beat B who was great because he beat C who was great because he beat A... Sorry, that's not convincing to me. Ill stick with the guys who were actually in the mix and not the guys who were stuck in a perpetual round robin, regardless of how unjust that was.

 

I absolutely can criticize LaMotta for not fighting guys who were not big draws, fighting the best of your era or not fighting them impacts LaMotta's legacy like it does other fighters. The ability of guys like Burley, Williams, etc was recognized regardless of how popular they were with fans.

 

He lost to Dauthille right before his title shot and also was apparently handily whipped by Villemain despite the official decision. These are not exactly the results I expect from an outstanding challenger.

 

Lloyd Marshall was part of the black murderers row and he scored wins over Ezzard Charles, Freddie Mills, Joey Maxim, Jake LaMotta, and Teddy Yarosz. I would say he proved himself pretty well against a wide array of opponents wouldn't you agree?