Bobo Olson and Jake LaMotta

You could if LaMotta didnt face any talent, like Graziano. But instead you are defending Graziano and Zale and trying to throw LaMotta, who faced more talent than most, under the bus in the process. Its a joke. No fighter in history fought everyone. Nobody. Not Greb, not Langford, not Robinson, nobody. So why hold LaMotta to some false standard that he had no control over while holding men who actually had that obligation to a lesser standard? Its comical to me that Burley missed so many name fighters in his era. The list is a mile long. Whether he was ducked or whatever his supporters can somehow equate those HUGE gaps in his record with him being able to defeat those guys and them supposedly fearing him (i.e. you) yet LaMotta who was taking more risks than any other white middleweight and who has deeper resume than almost middleweight from the 40s including the black fighters who were supposedly ducked, is somehow found lacking by you. Lol. BUT god forbid we criticize Graziano, Zale, and Cerdan. Lol.

 

And LaMotta did the right thing by defending against Dauthille and Villemains two time conqueror. So again, where is the beef?

 

And whats your point? That LaMotta ducked him? LaMotta fought him, and didnt have to as Marshall was a LHW. That Marshall should have gotten a shot at the MW title in 1949 instead of LaMotta? He was a ****ing light heavyweight! Was he head and shoulders above everyone else? No! **** no he wasnt. He split fights with Yarosz (the fight he won was on Yarosz honeymoon when he was untrained and just picking up party money), lost twice to Garcia, drew with Cisco, splite fights with Romero, lost to Murphy who Lamotta beat, lost to Williams who lamotta beat. Was he in the mix? Yes. Was he capable of beating guts he held weight, height, and reach advantages over? Yes. Was he unbeatable? No. Was he a guy you could point to and say categorically he was better than anyone in either the MW or LHW division? No, not at any point in his career. And how you have now tied his inability to get a shot in his division to LaMotta is far beyond my comprehension. It appears that as per your usual tactic when you are out of your depth you are trying to draw in other subjects to dilute the discussion. Nope. You chose this fight and youre damn well going to stay on topic.

 

The obvious point is many deserving fighters didn't get title shots at all. LaMotta got his chance I don't think he was ducked to a greater extent than Marshall and others or Ezzard Charles at light heavyweight

 

Villemain might have been more deserving of a shot in 1949 though

 

When in gods holy name did anyone ever say LaMotta was ducked more than Charles (who got four title shots at different times in his career) or Marshall??? And how would you care to quantify that? Nobody said that. Thats some false equivalency you are making up on the spot.

 

He also might have been deserving of a shot at Cerdans Euro title before LaMotta even got close to the world title but thats on Cerdan now isnt it? He also might have gotten a shot at the title if he hadnt gotten his ass beat twice by the guy who ultimately did. A frog might not bump its ass a hoppin if it had wings. Care to traffic in any more “ifs,” “ands,” “buts,” or “mights?”

 

Extremely Hilarious this one is

 

People seemed to be arguing that LaMotta was ducked and had a difficult road to the title and I was pointing out that LaMotta failed to clearly establish himself as the outstanding contender and also had better luck in getting a title shot than some of his contemporaries. I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about

 

The other argument that LaMotta was ducked by Zale was another thing I took issue with because LaMotta was by no means the outstanding contender during Zales reign.

 

In 1946, LaMotta beat the prior Number-1 Contender, in Holman Williams. I'd suggest this gave him deserved rights ahead of Graziano.

 

He had already been beaten by Cerdan at that stage which would have dropped him from the number one spot

 

Indeed. There was money to be made between Zale and Graziano to at least explain a deviation from the rankings, but the original question was exploring whether or not LaMotta has been overrated and Olson underrated.

Olsen is another stroy altogether, but I think enough has been suggested, during this thread for me to consider LaMotta deserves his place in history. In fact, this has been a useful thread for me since, in reading through it, certain doubts I’d had in my own mind about LaMotta, have dissipated somewhat. That is not to say that I do not think there could be a slight bit of overrating of Lamotta’s standing going on, at some level. However, in the realm of fine lines and, given the little extra perception I’ve acquired on the matter, I am, at the moment, inclined to think that there’s not a huge case to mount against LaMotta’s place in history.

I do think LaMotta has a fair bit to thank a certain Ray Robinson for, though. That said, I don’t think we need rest LaMotta’s entire case on Robinson.


Up to and including ’43 - other than a draw with Jose Basora (whom he lost to the next month in ’42), LaMotta is making his name off the back of contests with ranked Welterweights, such as Jimmy Edgar, Fritzie Zivic and Sugar Ray Robinson. I do have a query as to why LaMotta is installed as the rings Number 1 Middleweight contender by the end of 1943, on this basis? It makes no sense, unless you include his one victory over Welterweight Robinson, early in that year. Yes, LaMotta went 2-1 with Zivic in ’43, but still… …another fighter ranked only at 147. Do we make allowances during the war year? Perhaps.

So far, to me, it looks as though it’s only in ’44 that we really begin to see LaMotta competing against genuine, ranked Middleweights and, by the same token, doing well. Welch and Kochan x2, is a good year. He takes a hit against Marshal, but at least we’re seeing that LaMotta willingness to fight anyone, by this stage.

’45 is another good year, with probably LaMotta’s best showing against his nemesis Robinson since his win over him, two years prior, as well as a clutch of solid wins; these being over an emerging Costner (albeit another Welterweight), the ranked Dellicurti and Lytell; plus a little revenge over Basora and the hammering home of the advantage on Kochan.

The following year, is quite crucial and, again, seems to focus on a key win for LaMotta. I would suggest that, the defeat of Williams adds substantial weight to LaMotta’s standing. It also raises questions.

The obvious query here is how far gone was Williams? Another question, might be whether or not Williams was carrying an injury into this fight (based on reports of him being injured against Cerdan, in the fight prior). And, another might be is there any credence to the the claims of those who felt Williams might have won?

My current view is that, whilst Williams was clearly at the end of his meaningful career, he was regarded as the Number-1 Contender going into 1946 and had just run Cerdan close in Cerdan’s back yard, before facing LaMotta. This is where the apparent injury comes into play. No specific details are given, other than it being a pulled leg muscle (not sure which leg). The injury is also reported as the cause of a initial postponement of the bout between Williams and Cerdan and a reason for him slowing up in the latter half of their eventual July bout. At the same time, however, there are reports that Williams forced a cancellation of an originally arranged ‘June’ bout with LaMotta (before the Cerdan bout took place) - the reason, on this occasion, being attributed to the more basic of reasons - money.

Does Williams’ injury resurface, against LaMotta? No reports I have seen, so far, suggest so. Perhaps the opposite is evident from the widely distributed report that Williams lost the early rounds but made a late rally. This too, I think might be overstated - or even an incorrect interpretation of the fight, as I have seen an independent report claiming that, following Williams being knocked down in the first round, the bout was “

This content is protected

” (The Morning Call - Allentown PA - Thursday 08 August, 1946 - page 15).

There does seem to be much politicking around this post-war period. For example, Zale doing little in 1946 but stage a remarkable comeback against Graziano and being given the Fighter of the Year award, on account of this bout. Graziano getting another shot and winning, only to reciprocate the favor of a Return to Zale - and, all this spanning 21 precious months, while LaMotta and Cerdan, sit in waiting. Cerdan did better than LaMotta during this period in the cold and so I think he probably did deserve the eventual shot at Zale ahead of LaMotta, by 1948.

They would both meet each other eventually, anyway and, whatever controversy surrounds the LaMotta/Cerdan fight, it seems almost as if this moment is a relative insignificance, when LaMotta’s body of work is looked at, in full. His Fight of the Year effort against Dauthuille in 1950 caps off the best of LaMotta. The infamous St. Valentine’s Day Massacre is just that, but adds to the final riveting together of his and Ray Robinson’s careers - and, after that, comes the twilight.

This is as far as I have gotten in my review of LaMotta, but it currently looks to me to underpin an All-Time Middleweight rating within the Top-20 and probably within the Top-15. I understand why people might challenge this. I myself have challenged this line of thinking and have had to dig a little deeper into the context of specific fights, in order to understand the merit of his wins and the strength of the controversies - and I may find more details, which swing the pendulum in another direction, yet.