Bobo Olson and Jake LaMotta

"Correction. The greatest welterweight in history"

I posted on this thread that he is the greatest welter. That is certainly my belief. And it is only fair to LaMotta to mention it.

"LaMotta answered, "I haven't picked an opponent in my life. In fact I fought a couple of good light-heavyweights last year, Jimmy Reeves and Nate Bolden. I knocked out Reeves and lost a split decision to Bolden. Sure I fought Ray Robinson whom I outweigh plenty, but Robinson was a great fighter, the best I ever faced."

Sort of typical Jake spin. Yeah, light-heavies. Here are the weights as given in fights rec.

9-24-1941 Jake 167 Reeves 166 (Reeves W)
10-20-1941 Jake 164 Reeves 166 (Reeves W)
12-22-1941 Jake 164 Bolden 163 (Bolden W)
8-28-1942 Jake 160 Reeves 160 (Jake KO)

Now it is certainly true this is all early in Jake's career and he was somewhat green, but still the quote gives a misleading reading. His only win is over a middleweight. LaMotta is equal weight to these men.

"Welch"

Another guy highly rated during the war. Belloise KO'd him in two in 1946.

"Criticize him for facing Robinson"

Just the opposite. I maintain his win over Robinson with a 16 lb. weight pull is what props up his rep as a great fighter.

 

I like your posts, but this is an issue I would raise,

"despite a draw being awarded for LaMotta/Edgar"

Is it fair of the raters to question or disregard official decisions? Is it fair to the other contenders? And how many raters saw the fight before TV?

And, I think an important question. Where exactly was Graziano rated in September 1946 when he fought Zale? Even if overrated, if Graziano was rated at the top Zale at least can hardly be criticized.

 

"No, they weren't big names. They were fighting for peanuts on the chitlin circuit. From 1943 to 1945 Williams fought in exactly two venues in which LaMotta had established himself as an attraction"

??? Williams was the #1 contender in 1944 and 1945. Burley was the #2 contender in 1945. Both were rated ahead of LaMotta coming out of the war. They certainly seem to be big names in the ratings. If your position is that they weren't big names because they didn't draw at the gate, it is a two edged sword. LaMotta might have been a better draw than Williams or Burley, but he clearly wasn't compared to Graziano and some of the other contenders. So if this gives LaMotta a pass to avoid someone, it gives the others a pass to avoid LaMotta.

As for venues, just in the period you mentioned Williams fought in New Orleans, Newark, Havana, Hollywood, Philadelphia, Baltimore, San Francisco, Denver, Oakland, Washington DC, NYC, Buffalo, Detroit. It seems a totally off the wall criticism to me. Williams is fighting all over the country and even outside it.

"Burley was great for beating Williams and Williams was great for beating Burley."

Williams also split with Moore when Archie was already a light-heavy, a way bigger win over a big man than Jake ever had. And we are relentlessly hearing about Jake's taking on Marshall, but he lost badly. Williams won two of three from Marshall.

I agree that Williams looks better on paper to me than Burley. But Williams was 31 coming out of the war, and if Jake was over the hill at what age now, 27, or 25, or even 22, Williams fought a lot more tough fights than Jake over the years so his slipping in his thirties is no surprise.

By the way, I have never criticized Robinson for not fighting Williams or Burley or Booker or any other middle. He was a welter. Jake is the guy who is in the same weight class.

 

"LaMotta fights a guy who had previously beaten Williams and Burley"

And got his clock cleaned. I would never accuse any boxer of being physically scared, but LaMotta finding out he wasn't in the same class as Marshall is hardly proof he might not want to avoid guys who were better than Marshall. Marshall was coming off a loss to Jack Chase for the MIDDLEWEIGHT championship of California. His weight in the LaMotta fight was 160 1/4 to Jake's 158 1/2. Looks like a middleweight fight to me. Williams won two of three from Marshall, one in New Orleans, and one at Griffith Stadium in Washington. Burley is on about the same level as Williams. They split their series evenly.

"Those guys were out there because they were desperate. Jake wasn't. He didn't need to drive out to California and jump up a division"

Williams and Burley were often fighting in the east. And they were in his division. Jake could avoid fighting them and make money and stay high in the ratings (but behind Williams in 1944 & 1945 and Burley in 1945) and so he did until Cerdan forced his hand by beating Williams. He really needed the win over Williams at that point to stay on the same plane as Cerdan.

 

"Odd shot at LaMotta's war record."

He doesn't have one. I am not criticizing that, as I don't know anything about it. I do criticize whimpering and sniveling about how tough poor Jake had it when many if not most of his peers lost prime years to military service.

"the next time you are slavishly defending Dempsey's defense against a dying Miske"

I haven't defended Dempsey on most issues for years and certainly not on the Miske fight being much of a defense, other than I can understand that he had unfinished business with Miske as he had fought a draw with him in 1918. I think Dempsey the most overrated fighter of them all.

 

Well, Zale wasn't champion after the second Graziano fight. The Ring rated Zale #1 so Graziano is apparently defending against his #1 contender in 1948. I don't know if Cerdan was or wasn't the #1 contender when he got his shot, but whatever the ratings were, I don't think anyone had a clearly better case. Certainly not LaMotta after losing to Hudson and getting stopped by Fox. Cerdan should be criicized for defending against LaMotta rather than Belloise, after LaMotta lost to Dauthuille and got such an awful decision against Villemain that the officials who voted for him were suspended. There is an article I recently read which claimed a clause in the Zale-Cerdan contract obligated Cerdan to make his first defense against the opponent the IBC (basically a front for the Mafia) named in a promotion they ran. That claim makes sense to me as I would have thought Cerdan would have wanted to make his first defense in France.

And I certainly think suspicion is justified concerning possible Mob influence on the officials in the Villemain bout.

 

The bottom line in that first paragraph is that LaMotta cut a deal with the mob to dump a fight in return for a championship shot. The deal came after he had blown his top rating with the loss to Hudson. He gets the shot over the more worthy Belloise after losing to Dauthuille and getting a really rotten decision over Villemain for which the officials who voted for him were suspended by the NYSAC. All the how he hated to do it pablum is basically buying into LaMotta spin. All this happens when he is only 25. The NYSAC had penciled him in as the contender to get the first shot at the winner of the Graziano-Zale series, but he blew that by losing to Hudson.

"Villemain and Dauthuille" "Cerdan . . . didn't want anything to do with those guys."

Why should Cerdan have fought Dauthuille? Dauthuille lost to Gustave Degeuve and Villemain in 1947, lost to Cyrille Delannoit twice in 1948, lost again to Villemain in 1948, and then lost to Mitri in 1948. He was just a Euro trial horse, an unrated second-stringer until he beat LaMotta in 1949. Cerdan defended his Euro title in 1948 against Delannoit who was coming off two wins over Dauthuille.

Villemain was the better fighter, but he was the French welter champion, defending that title against Omar Kouidri in December, 1947. Villemain had beaten the then 20 year old Delannoit at welter in 1946, but didn't move himself into the middles until 1948. It is a pretty tight window when Cerdan is supposed to have fought Villemain, and somewhat beside the point anyway.

Villemain in 1949 loses decisively to Belloise, loses the terrible decision to LaMotta, and loses to Sands, but then beats LaMotta decisively in December. He challenges Jake to a championship fight but Jake evades to fight Graziano. Villemain takes a shot at the Pennsylvania world championship against Robinson and loses, and also loses a rematch. Robinson has been the real #1 contender since August 1949, but Jake doesn't defend against him either until he can't avoid Ray any longer w/o getting stripped. Robinson destroys Jake when he finally gets his shot.

Villemain is far short of Robinson, but one can make a good case he was better than LaMotta. His loss was a very questionable decision. He won the rematch. He also later beat Nardico, who stopped LaMotta.

Villemain and Cerdan were in different weight classes in France, so how these two stack up seems nothing but a diversion from how Jake stacks up with Villemain.

 

"He also might have been deserving of a shot at Cerdan's Euro title before LaMotta even got close to the world title"

Take about diversions. Take it up with the EBU.

"He also might have gotten a shot at the title if he hadn't gotten his ass beat twice by the guy who ultimately did."

Actually, Villemain really beat LaMotta twice. As LaMotta refused to risk the title against him, seeking to fight Graziano instead, Villemain accepted a world championship fight--recognized in Pennsylvania--with Robinson, who outpointed him in 15 rounds. Jake meanwhile defends against a couple of lesser lights until he more or less has to face Robinson, and then is beaten into grotesque helplessness in 13. Later Villemain also beats Nardico who then KO's LaMotta.

How any of this is spun in LaMotta's favor is a head-scratcher.