Bodysnatcher vs. The 4 Kings (McCallum vs. Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Roberto Durán)

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023.


Which kings does McCallum slay?

  1. Marvin Hagler

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ray Leonard

    8.3%
  3. Thomas Hearns

    33.3%
  4. Roberto Durán

    58.3%
  5. None

    41.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    abstract: So, just as there are multiple nominees for the right to be called the "fifth Beatle" (ranging from both original rhythm section members Pete Best & Stu Sutcliffe, to various managers, DJ's, producers and friends) there is room for debate, IMO, as to whom posterity could regard as the honorary pentagonal loop-closer along with arguably the most famous round-robin ATG club in the history of the sport. The majority opinion is that Wilfred Benítez - who fought all but Hagler - deserves the distinction, hands down. Now, let me say I am quite fond of El Radar and would not dismiss his very strong claim. If anybody wats to call the boricua legend "el quinto rey", that's braw enough. I just wonder if there's another contemporary of the group that might have at least as solid a claim despite having fought none of them (certainly not for want of trying).

    I am referencing of course one Michael McKenzie McCallum. It has always been the Jamaican technician's assertion - in which he is hardly alone (though perhaps the viewpoint of a loud minority) - that he was ducked, to varying degrees of abject shamefulness, by not one but the whole quartet.

    To wit:

    Hagler - This can probably be said without much controversy to be the least credible allegation (which I realize at first blush may sound awfully convenient from the mouth of an undisguised cheerleader of the Marvelous One...but the facts speak for themselves). Mike claims he was there waving his arms wide open in 1985-86, but his stock wouldn't rise to full superfight-marketable heights until 1987 when he stopped Curry - by which time Marv had permanently and on unshakable principle retired.
    IB's take: It could be a very tough night at the office for my boy (and the greatest Massachusetts fighter of my lifetime, with all due respect to my late pal Tony DeMarco), although I can't favor the Kingstonian-New Yorker outright in this game of physical chess. I'll call it 70-30 in favor of Hagler by decision.

    Leonard - He does have the ready made alibi of never having been too extensively at one time in the same waters as McCallum, but, damningly, he also is on record as having opened his gob to declare him too high risk for too little reward.
    IB's take: IMO this is a worse stylistic match-up than all three of the others. SRL by UD.

    Durán - They actually were scheduled to meet in 1984, as McCallum was his mandatory #1 contender. Of course the Panamanian jumped when offered the chance for a much fatter purse against Hearns - something that was facilitated by their mutual trainer behind McCallums' back. More on that below...
    IB's take: assuming we're talking '84 when it should have taken place, I lean slightly in MMM's favor, maybe 60-40 or 55-45. The deeper we get into the decade, the more that margin increases.

    Hearns - The scuttlebutt from insiders of the biz has long been that after knocking out Kronk fighter Milton "Ice Man" McCrory with a body shot (what else) in a WBA title defense three years past a contentious split with the Detroit gym, his former coach Emanuel Steward purportedly climbed in the ring and thrust something like a glossy 8x10 of Hearns in his face, seething that it was the closest he would ever get to sharing a ring with the Hitman.
    IB's take: victory is by no means guaranteed here, as Hearns could very well outbox him on the wings of a superior jab (with a nod to Mike's as he was no slouch in that department himself) and considerable speed advantage. In my own mind's eye, though, at the risk of sounding like a cliché merchant, this does play out a bit like McCallum vs. Don Curry - at least in terms of result, if not optically round to round. Down on cards, I can see Mike venting all his Kronk spite on Steward's favorite pet as sacrificial lamb and catching him with a perfectly timed counter from hell with years' worth of pent-up rage and frustration behind it. :deal:
    A decision is also within the realm of possibility, but he would need to fire on all cylinders for twelve rounds and play the role of mongoose to perfection to stultify the Motor City Cobra. On his very best day, points is a hard maybe.

    What say y'all? Does anybody see McCallum posting a better h2h mark than Benítez managed (1-2, and let's be honest, that becomes 1-3 pretty much automatically if he did ever get in with Hagler, simply awful match-up for El Radar)? If so, that does strengthen his case for being at the very least co-5th king.
     
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  2. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    Interestingly - it is an interesting sport, is it not? - it is I think entirely possible (and reasonable) for someone to hold that Benítez beats McCallum h2h but fares worse against T4K overall than him. Or vice-versa.
     
  3. Chuck Norris

    Chuck Norris Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mike McCallum was arguably IMO one of most complete fighters I have seen, He could do anything, but besides Duran, who I think he could beat, the other three I wouldn't pick him to win. Leonard, Hearns and Hagler were too naturally gifted.

    Against Leonard. Speed was what gave MM problems. Curry was giving him fits with his speed until Mike took him out. Problem is Ray is a lot faster then Curry, also much more durable. Sugar Ray on points.
    Against Hearns. Hearns was H2H the best at light middleweight and I think Tommy would have smashed MM - too fast and hit too hard. At middleweight its more competitive, and Mike has a better chance. Hearns by late KO.
    Against Hagler. If Hagler fought a tame and methodical fight like he did against Duran, McCallum could squeeze a win, but if Hagler fought like he did against Hearns or Mugabi, I would pick him to stop Mike late. Hagler on points.
    Against Duran. I would favor McCallum to outpoint Duran, mostly due to his inconsistencies. McCallum on points.
     
  4. MrPook

    MrPook Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When did they start getting called the 4 Kings? It’s blasphemous.
     
  5. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Loses to them all if they're fighting at their very best.

    Loses to Duran at 154 close decision.

    Loses to Hearns at 154 by UD but competitive.

    Loses to Hagler at 160 by UD but competitive.

    Loses to Leonard at 160 by close decision.
     
  6. DJN16

    DJN16 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hmm rule out Hagler, who will grind him down and likely force a late stoppage.

    At their best I think they are all better fighters than The Body Snatcher however if they underperformed then they all could lose.

    Most likely loses a contentious decision to SRL.

    Has potential to ko Hearns and may beat Duran on the scorecards.

    Lots of variables at stake though.
     
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    :dunno Not long after their era. 90's perhaps? Early days Internet.

    Certainly by the point George Kimball wrote his esteemed, very famous book entitled as such.

    This can not possibly be your first time hearing it.
     
  8. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    In terms of the poll, I realize a lot of these are contests that most of us imagine would be close and hard to call (and "if they fought X number of times...", yadda-yadda). So we're looking for a "gun to your head" pick in first encounters with each, at whatever time and in whichever division that seems most sensible to happen.

    Gun to my head, MMM goes 2-2 here.
     
  9. MrPook

    MrPook Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I did watch a documentary on an American Airlines flight the other day called the 4 Kings, not bad, but I didn’t really like the name. I never heard of the book but that’s probably just me.

    Now I see all these 4 Kings references, sounds way too woke for me.

    Myself I have always thought of them as The Fabulous Four, but again maybe that’s just me. Pretty sure that’s how they have been called most of the times.
     
  10. JMotrain

    JMotrain Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think he beats both Hearns and Duran. I don't have enough to conviction to say he beats Leonard or Hagler. But if it happened in 1988 or later, I think those are toss-up fights, especially Hagler who I think retired at the right time. Hagler had been through wars and 50+ fights, he was done by his early 30s. McCollum was in his prime, I could see him outpointing Hagler.

    I mean he could have beaten all of them, I just don't think he would have. McCollum was really just as good as any of them IMO.
     
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  11. BigBone

    BigBone Boxing Addict Full Member

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  12. JMotrain

    JMotrain Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't see the argument for Duran. He lost to Laing at 154 pounds and barely scraped by Barkley at MW. And if you want to compare Duran in style, it would be James Toney who arguably lost the first fight to McCallum. Toney beat up Barkley whereas Duran got by on a SD. Duran's prime wasn't even at WW it was at LW. I can't see him beating a big 154 pound fighter with a great skill set. I think MM would have won on points or by late stoppage.

    Hearns you can make an argument for. Out of all of them, this might be the toughest one to predict. My feeling is McCallum would be extra cautious, but Hearns really had poor punch resistance. McCallum could have definitely put his lights out and while I don't think Jackson was as technically sound as Hearns, I don't think Hearns had his punching power (which says a lot for a puncher like Hearns). So just thinking Hearns clips MM is not that likely. If Hearns wins, he probably outpoints him in a chess match.

    With Leonard, I could see his speed being an issue. But much like Hagler, I don't think SRL was really in his prime in the late 80s. And he lost to Norris in the early 90s, who wasn't as good as MM. I could see this being points win for MM. But still it's possible SRL fights similarly to his fight with Hagler and wins a decision using his legs.

    Hagler retired after the Leonard fight and given the wear on his body; he definitely could have got outpointed by MM. We really don't know what he had left. I think if the Hagler from the Leonard fight fought the McCollum from the Jackson fight, I'd take McCollum to win on points.